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It could be argued that the ship is basically hard tethered to the EC whilst being built ( tough I'd have a shroud around it rather than just being open to view. As this is a 'dry-dock' it has all the construction equipment in there rather than the docking support systems instead. Once the ship is complete it is cut loose and finished fitting on a standard tether ( much like a ship now gets the hull built and then launched from dry dock before they finish fitting).

I understand this perfectly.

You are not entitled to have 100% uptime in your production lines. You are suppose to be vulnerable to the other players in this shared universe. This is not a single player game where you get to build a spreadsheet, click a bunch of buttons, and be guaranteed ISK at the end. You are intended to account for and respond to the actions of other players. Whining that you are "loosing" profit because you have to take down your assets and put them somewhere safe is not a very sympathetic position.

I get that industrialists are already affected by war declarations, but that is completely intentional and not the point. What is however true, is that under the current system POSes are at no direct risk in highsec. Doesn't that seem a little broken? They are also incredibly powerful in that they can build almost anything with no trade-offs or choices having to be made by the industrialist. They can just deploy almost every array (on-lining/off-lining if need be) and build anything without any hard decisions on the part of the user, and the user doesn't even have to worry about defense as they have a 100% avoid PvP card that can be played by just taking them down during the first 24h. They needed an adjustment, and that is what they got.

Anyways, it is not my place to defend or champion CCP's changes to the game. They are more than capable of that themselves. But I did want to point out to those making silly suggestions to make them invulnerable again and able to do everything that these changes are not oversights, and completely intentional on the part of CCP. Perhaps there are too many different M rigs, or there are other minor things that could use tweaking, but the core idea that ECs will be vulnerable and require fitting decisions on your part is not going to change.

As for the "blob fears", I just don't see it. Only a handful of Citadels have been attacked and destroyed in highsec, and these will be even less profitable to explode, perhaps not even dropping enough to cover the 100M ISK in wardec fees you have to pay for the right to even try. It will be perfectly possible for a small group, or even a solo player, to use these things pretty safely. There should be advantages for industrialists who group up though, and non-zero risks for in-space infrastructure used by them, and with these things there will be.

"Sandbox" simply means a freeform play-style without a predefined goal - it doesn't mean every last player gets to have all of their hopes and dreams automatically fulfilled.

It's hard to take people seriously when they instantly descend into unrestrained paranoid delusions in which CCP is trying to personally destroy them.

My own industrial operation is just me, myself, and my alts, so I definitely fall into the "little guy" group in that regard. There are things I like about this, there are things I dislike about it. I'm quite sure I'll be able to adjust my operation to continue functioning just fine, though I'm not sure what that will look like just yet. For the immediate future, I suspect I'll continue using my POS until there is some firm data to play with, as I don't see much benefit (for me) in early adoption.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings any if the base fuel cost for the non-capital service modules were reduced to 16. With the EC bonus, this would then make a basic manu/research medium cost 36 blocks per hour, which is quite a bit more palatable than 45, while still being far more than I spend on my medium for a wider array of bonused services.

I'm mostly in favor of the rig consolidations Winter proposed a page or two back, but I also would like to see a more functional market for intermediate goods, so I'm not quite fully sold on that just yet.

I believe that the rig bonuses are far too specialized. For instance, I manufacture T2 Amarr ships and t1 battleships from bottom up. With the current rigs though, I would have to buy multiple industrial arrays in order to maintain bonuses on my setup- Component bonuses, t2 small bonuses, t2 medium bonuses, t1 medium bonuses, t1 large bonuses, copying bonuses, invention bonuses, etc. Even with that setup I'm losing other more insignificant bonuses, and any benefit I could get to installing all of these is destroyed by the massive fuel costs coming from two or more arrays.

I realize that other people would probably be using the same arrays, and we could split fuel costs. However, multiple people will rarely ever be producing the same items. Half of the people would still be missing out on bonuses relevant to them, and they may as well manufacture in a station. With the way they are currently planned, it is un-economical for anything but the most massive corps with multiple people making the same things to set up arrays. Everybody else will be shafted into using arrays placed in highsec that others have put up, or in stations, limiting the variety of space in which industry can be accomplished. It is simply unfeasible for mediums and larges to be used by small corporations due to the limited variety of bonuses, and any large corp would be better off shelling 30b for the x-large to avoid prohibitive fuel costs.

I try, however, not to criticize without posting solutions. There are two ways of making things easier. Seperate the large and x-large rigs so that one is ME and one is TE, but then combine the groupings. For instance, instead of T1 small, t2 small, t1 medium, t2 medium, t1 large, and t2 large, there would be T1 ship ME, T1 ship TE, T2 ship ME, and T2 ship TE. This would allow people to choose what bonuses they wanted, but over a wider variety of items, making it easier to support medium sized groups by larges. I still believe in even my example that there would be too many different rigs and bonuses, but I think it would be a step in the right directions.

I also have a few misc. questions for CCP

• Since null and wormholes seem to get the same bonuses, will wormholes also get a way to reduce system cost index?
• Will rig costs also be decreased and by how much? What are they expected to cost?
• How much are the service modules expected to cost?
• What will happen to jobs in progress if the service modules become unfueld?

@CCP



What will happen with not-deployed outposts after December release?
Will be they reimbursed somehow or become a pumpkin?

I like the new structures so far. My industry alt has long suffered trying to do everything with a POS and a bajillion different arrays and it got to the point where I just didn't bother using it anymore. When a wardecc shattered that damn wreck I could only think "Thank god!"

With this new thing, I'll probably go the route of specializing it to produce one specific type of thing and only this. Of course, nothing will prevent me from using this new space factory for other stuff, it'll be just a lot less min-maxed.

The fuel costs are where I'm stuck right now: It's 20 blocks per hour per service module, right? So this means a single medium factory has about 3x the fuel costs of a medium POS tower or 1,5x the fuel cost of a large POS. Not as expensive as I feared, but it's still a hefty step up from the small POS.

Anyway, I can see saving a lot of fuel costs by simply leaving everything offline until I need it. On the other hand, that would mean others couldn't use the structure even if I allowed this.

I've seen people claiming public ECs with zero fees will be everywhere soon, but with the fuel cost for leaving all service-modules running this seems to be a rather costly and uncharacteristically altruistic affair. I'm not so sure I'd let people run jobs for free if I have to pay the fuel costs for them.

Unobvious decision = fun gameplay, isnt it?


You underestimate how many space rich people are there and how space rich they are. Do you know Lenny Kravitz2 is anchoring 6 freeport Keepstars in lowsec as we speak (and dozens of Fortizars on top of that)?

People are discontent that they can't attack something 24x7 when there are no defenders to defend it

I wouldn't expect a lot of potential iteration on that. A major design goal of the structures were that the choice of when a structure gets attacked goes to the defender as there is no gameplay for the defender relative to the attacker having it shot in an off timezone scenario. While there is an aspect of "reduced gameplay" for the attacker, it is also gameplay where there is no defender in many, if not most cases. CCP stated they wanted increased interaction at the expense of this "gameplay" and made it so that the attacker has to be inconvenienced (potentially) in order to engage a defender when they likely will be present. The extended vulnerable hours on the EC and other potential future structures makes interaction with them more likely compared to a citadel which is designed to be the home base of a defender.

A "Sandbox" is a game in which exist minimal limitations, an idea of freedom to roam and change/build/destroy the virtual world a plyer "live" in.
Going from a POS system, with low cost, minimal requirements, (too imo) huge defences, quick deployment, to this structure idea, is anti-sandbox.
They sold us this whole new structure idea, i quote : "to emphasise and enhance the sandox side of Eve Online".
By puting more limitations than before, they are actually doing the exact opposit.

I'm not paranoid at all, that's a fact.
CCP wether did not think at all about solo players and tiny small entities; or they are meaning to limit the interactions they can have within the game.
That's just an objective observation.

There is something definitly missing in this awsome idea, to make it really Sandbox-y.

___

Your own industrial operation might be just fine for you. But, please, remind me how many years are you playing this game ?
How many ISK you saved during all those years ?
How many knowledge did you accumulate throughout those years ?
Etc.. etc...

Yeah, i certainly bet that a guy playing for 11 years have no worries whatsoever about what would mean these changes.
Don't be so selfish, and try to look at the bigger picture.
Try to put yourself in different skins than yours, and think about what could mean those changes for a guy playing this game for only a year, or even two, and wanted to start an industrialist carrier. There are multiple ither scenarii that you could imagine if you were doing the effort to think out of your box.

That's my answer to your allusions on me being a "paranoid capricious kid".
Beware the words you are using my dear, i'm not your friend, nore your son.

"Freeport" means anyone can dock there, it doesn't mean every service is free-as-in-beer. The public market fee on at least the Aunenen keepstar is set at 1%.