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Two Step: killing the gravy train...

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Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#181 - 2015-10-01 20:18:04 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:


Capital Escalations are an unmatched ISK faucet, except maybe by incursions.



Please stop posting. tia

~lvl 60 paladin~
Beta Page
CastleKickers
Rote Kapelle
#182 - 2015-10-02 01:07:02 UTC
The isk is never the issue i feel here.

The thing that always should matter is the risk reward ratio,and because of this i don't necessarily think cap esc's are the worst offenders.If you have half a brain you can make it very difficult to be ganked but you still have the inherent risk of fielding a 4bil + dread and having assets in a very much removable POS.

If someone really wants you dead there are ways to still achieve this.I know of people more than happy to sit in your bear hole for a week or two to see your site running habits and then seed the hole in hopes of a logonski gank.

Yes the isk when running solo (with alts) is crazy but shouldn't it be as currently the highest tier of PVE in the game?

Your not fully invulnerable ever in wormhole space yes your can more or less lock your hole down to a certain extent but you cant stop a decent group logging on to kill your solo dread.

The real issue here is the isk payouts to activity's that have almost zero risk attached/and or a tiny isk barrier for entry - obviously the major contender here being incursions but more to the point FW LVL4s in the right conditions are easily 500mil an hour in a bloody stealth bomber.Thats achievable in an alt whos 30days ish old at a cost of around 40mil isk.

I dont know what the solution is to be quite honest but isk HAS to be balanced against risk/effort then again with a clever and canny understanding of the market and meta one can quite easily outdo this isk/hour updating orders 10minutes a day.

Its a difficult one to balance but the easiest way to increase the risk on the side of the wormhole argument is to re introduce the npc kill api data.I cant see how this would have any negative effect at all in whspace.

GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#183 - 2015-10-02 03:18:53 UTC
Beta Page wrote:
The isk is never the issue i feel here.

Its a difficult one to balance but the easiest way to increase the risk on the side of the wormhole argument is to re introduce the npc kill api data.I cant see how this would have any negative effect at all in whspace.




Watch list is probably getting removed at some point in the near future, no more free intel apart from the basics.

Even if you saw a spike on a map, you can roll all you want and have little chance to find said system.
npc api data actually hurts lower class wh's that touch on hs the worst, more so than anything to do with cap escalations.

All you do is join your buddies, scan map a load of wh's from HS and sit back and wait for the red circles to appear, then burn and kill, burn and kill.

if you want intel you need to put something there.
Beta Page
CastleKickers
Rote Kapelle
#184 - 2015-10-02 05:17:27 UTC
GizzyBoy wrote:
Beta Page wrote:
The isk is never the issue i feel here.

Its a difficult one to balance but the easiest way to increase the risk on the side of the wormhole argument is to re introduce the npc kill api data.I cant see how this would have any negative effect at all in whspace.




Watch list is probably getting removed at some point in the near future, no more free intel apart from the basics.

Even if you saw a spike on a map, you can roll all you want and have little chance to find said system.
npc api data actually hurts lower class wh's that touch on hs the worst, more so than anything to do with cap escalations.

All you do is join your buddies, scan map a load of wh's from HS and sit back and wait for the red circles to appear, then burn and kill, burn and kill.

if you want intel you need to put something there.



Uh the non plebs will obviously make use of rolling there statics/criting connections when chosing to pve but will yes allow purging of the bads in a similar manner to delta hunting in dotlan in null.Wanna rat in your static ok no worries but your gonna have crit everything first.

Wormholes already carry no local - a suggestion on being able to allow api pulls of npc kills in whspace will only cause issues to the low hanging fruit of the eve population.

Easiest way to balance the income is make the risk more.If more wormhole bears that are careless are put into more risky situations everyone wins right?

Also watchlist removal has been heresay for years no?
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#185 - 2015-10-02 05:41:49 UTC
Braxus Deninard wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Ah so basically you want the game to be changed so you get more kill mails... got it.


yes, unlike your corp living in a 5-3 farming sites with 7 dreads and then going to run incursions some of us actually enjoy pvp and hunting.

the whole point of this thread is to change escalations so that they either give less money or create more risk (or a combination fo both). i am of course on the side of more risk because i would love it if more people actually hunted caps but i can see why many people don't at the moment because so many people run with just one poorfit dread. if we just decrease the amount of isk they give w-space will obviously suffer with no benefits other than less isk. i would like to think that the vast majority of people in this thread agree with me.

if you dont enjoy risk i suggest you stop running with 7 dreads. it might not end well. Blink



Nope, just you agree with yourself.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#186 - 2015-10-02 06:21:14 UTC
Well I was in the process of trying out C4/C5s soon. But if CCP listens to any of the garbage in this thread, I think I'll refrain and go do incursions while you idiots slaughter each other to death. If CCP listens to bitterclowns like in this thread, then it will eventually ruin eve for the younger generation and all that'll be left playing eve is you bitter folks.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#187 - 2015-10-02 06:36:58 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Well I was in the process of trying out C4/C5s soon. But if CCP listens to any of the garbage in this thread, I think I'll refrain and go do incursions while you idiots slaughter each other to death. If CCP listens to bitterclowns like in this thread, then it will eventually ruin eve for the younger generation and all that'll be left playing eve is you bitter folks.


If Incursions are a viable alternative to wormholes for you, no one wants you as a potential neighbour either.
Winthorp
#188 - 2015-10-02 06:39:16 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Well I was in the process of trying out C4/C5s soon. But if CCP listens to any of the garbage in this thread, I think I'll refrain and go do incursions while you idiots slaughter each other to death. If CCP listens to bitterclowns like in this thread, then it will eventually ruin eve for the younger generation and all that'll be left playing eve is you bitter folks.



I like this gurl.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#189 - 2015-10-02 07:11:55 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
When you're running anoms/sites, sleepers from other anoms should move to the one being run, adjacent system's anoms' population should migrate over to answer their brethrens' distress calls. With some serious pve activity next door, closing the hole to stop *your* sleepers from running towards your neighbours should be the least you have to do.

Might be interesting if you suddenly face 40 sleeper BS - *to deep*, he yelled.


Finally, an interesting idea. Having more activity from the sleepers themselves would be a step in the right direction.

Something that'll give you bloodhounds the content you thirst for and PVErs something else to watch out for.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#190 - 2015-10-02 07:38:33 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:
Does everyone in this discussion understand the isk the farmers are making here?

Lets say you are starting from scratch and you have nothing. You need:
- 1x good dread pilot (~30b)
- 1x sitting/rolling dread pilot (~10b)
- 2x sitting/rolling carrier pilot (~15b)
- 1x scanner (assuming none of the above can do it) (~5b)
- 4x capitals (~15b)
- 1x setup (tower, fuel, structures etc) (~3b)
- 5x plex (to fund your 5 accounts) (~6b)

Total cost, ~85b and this is on the top end of what you'd expect to pay, realistically you can save 25-50% of this cost. Now, most of the cost of setup is never at risk (toon purchases), you are only risking some capitals (mitigated by logging off in them) and a tower.

In return, every time you run a site, counting blue loot, you get around 600m. You can run the same site 4 times. 2.4b. You can easily average, in c5 space, 10 sites a week. Weekly income? 24b. Using hero dread, its going to take from 15-30 minutes per site. If you are doing 10 sites, 4 times, thats 40 site-runs, or 10-20 hours over the week.

Monthly income from a C5 farm hole? 100b, or around 1.5-2.5b/hr

Now look back at the setup costs and running costs. Each month, you'll pay around ~6b for plexes, plus whatever replacements you need, say the entire fleet wipes every month and you have to setup a new tower (~18b), total profit for the month, in C5? 82b.

82b profit after replacing every capital, and the tower, and paying for plex. Every month.

And thats in C5 space, where you are relatively safe, there are plenty of empty systems to use and you are unlikely to get jumped.

If you move up to C6 space, which is (almost) entirely owned by renting alliances now, you can almost double that because the number of farmers and active holes significantly increases your individual site spawning rate, and averaging 20+ sites a week is easily achievable.

This isk flow has to stop. You must increase the risk of running capital escalations, without killing corps who rely on capital escalations at home to fund operations. Its the farmers who must be punished. Some of my (and others) earlier suggestions would do that.

- Increase connections to WH's that collapse their static
- Require an active, open, unmassed static WH before escalation waves spawn


What about those who only run C5s in Marauders? THey don't make nearly this much, you wanna nerf their little income as well??
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#191 - 2015-10-02 08:11:31 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:

What about those who only run C5s in Marauders? THey don't make nearly this much, you wanna nerf their little income as well??



A Marauder is somewhere between 260 and 400mil/h farming C5s, for solofarming i'd say it's fine to be honest, you have your marauder back after 4-6 sites (if you're cheap fit).

I'd rather see ccp moving some money from escalations into let's say the 2nd + 3rd + last wave and buff non-escalated farming slightly, as next step nerf solodread by infinite pointing of capitals until site is finished and as last step change WH mass (allow 2 caps passing twice and MAYBE allow low class to high class capitaljumps and give them a timer for jumping back, which extincts if you leave system), however i'd still prefer removal of those escalations and an entire rework of wspace pve, we see not enough drifters in wspace, just saying.
Decreasing Orbits from sleepless guardians to 15k - 20k will in fact buff fleets running escalations, slightly.
Increasing neuting from Sleepers will just result in more caps on grid to compensate with dps
Increasing DPS from Sleepers will result in above as well.
Removing Escalations will drive ~ 90% of farmers away i'd say
Nerfing Red Giant SB-Farming is important too... same for smartbombfarming it's the fastest isk in game at the moment, risk is low.
Cataclysmic WHs aint as viable as other WHs to really run escalations at the moment, tweak is needed there.
We still have no clue how and when the cap-rebalance will be released, however T2 guns will have an impact on Farmingspeed, buffing Capescalations even further, impact of rebalance is not forseeable yet...
In fact why is there not a single sleepercapital?!

If you list risk vs reward:

Incursions aint balanced in compairson with C5/C6 capitals Escalations -> Either buff income from Escalations OR decrease Incursionpayouts, forcing our Carebears to leave Concordspace to get their wallets filled actually will get some people into 00,LS and wspace, however a few will quit.
00-Farming is safe, i'd say it can compete with incursions in safety, offering a decent income over time.
FW-Farming (missions, plex,...) is balanced I'd say, i spend a year in FW and noticed how easy it actually is to hunt farmers, if well executed they've almost no chance to escape.
L5 and L4 farming is balanced, i've hunted L5 runners and i know people doing it very successfully, however if you are in "safe space" it offers high income with pretty much no risk at all, CAN have a tweak, but personally i doubt it's nessescary -> people CAN increase the risk with actively hunting those Farmers.

Reactivating NPC kill api for just c5 and c6 would be dump, however as somebody mentioned earlier, impact on c1-3 can be huge if it's back.

So to balance capital escalations -> nerf solo dread, tweak rg-farming, rework cv-effect slightly, move some loot from escalations to the waves/site itself, infinite point capitals until site is finished, MAYBE get npc kill api back for c5 and c6 only, rework jumpmasses to allow better staticfarming, keep wspace in mind while giving caps a balancepass, give hunters a tool to find their prey a little bit easier (right now running sites in ships with mjd feels like 0 risk pve, all you need is a quick scanner and keep your mjd ready when new sig spawns + align out -> delayed sigspawn on Scanner OR slightly higher chance to open a static into WHs with NPC kills within that hour, add a delay of at least 30 minutes to that chance increase), make wspace more attractive for real players instead of farmers is nessescary here (to increase risk for farmers due to higher activity more caps will be caught commtied in sites)
OR just remove escalations and see farmers leaving, which is something i'd prefer as wspaces current state needs some kind of reboot (way too many farms out there to provide money for 00,LS and HS-corps....)
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#192 - 2015-10-02 08:14:41 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Nox52 wrote:
Ok I have to ask, why did you have two webs on your nag?

That is a long and funny story, yea that is not a mistake i refitted to that as soon as the saber was on Dscan. Thou i did think i changed ammo to sabot... Meh, not like that would have changed anything.

Also note the name of our corp. We try stuff in TQ not in Sisi. For the most part i have a lot of fun in this game. But i really need to rethink my strategy in WH space. I am almost losing dreads faster than i can pay for them.



A Vargur would've shreaded that Saber before he could've launched his bubble. I'd use Marauders in C5s if I were you.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#193 - 2015-10-02 08:31:14 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:
No solution that forces a entity to choose between PVP and PVE is going to deliver the outcomes people expect and hope for and any solution that bases itself around 'farm the static instead of home' forces people to make that choice. It is not a solution, it will aggravate the problem. It will lead to more ganks, but not more fights.

The solution is not to make sites harder.
The solution is not to adjust sleeper AI.

For 2-3 years, the difficulty in sites was enough of a barrier to this kind of farming. As always, static content (npc ai, not content in our static WH's!) eventually gets worked out, to the point where we can now run 5 accounts and farm the hardest WH content available while multiboxing and reading reddit. If you change the AI, you may make things difficult for another 1-2 years, but then we'll be right back here again.

The solution is to cause more interaction between entities in WH Space.
The solution is to punish, prevent or inhibit peoples ability to 'shut themselves off'.
The solution is to let players properly police these farmers themselves.

The last poster says seed and hit the farmer. My numbers prove how ineffective that actually is. You could hit 2 capitals (hero dread + sitting dread), 10 times a month and still he'll make a profit. Hell, if you repeatedly hit them, they'll just move to another system. There are many C5's. We can't seed them all (although some are trying!).




No, farmers will then leave, and you'll be left with rolling empty systems all day long wondering where all the farmers went.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2015-10-02 09:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
My corp mates and I were discussing the issues surrounding farming and the general lack of activity in wormhole space. We came to the conclusion that:

1. Sites should despawn 1 hour after the first trigger has been killed or the first escalation wave.
2. Wormhole space needs and expansion or at lease some interesting new features.

The first point is pretty self explanatory. Sites can still be ran in your home but if you want to farm all day, you need to use your static. This change will have a secondary effect of being a conflict driver because a wormholes static class will become an important factor and thus, people will fight over systems. The new escalation mechanic also enables groups do deny isk to farmers by shooting their triggers, which may also result in more fights.


The second point is something we have needed for years now. Sure we have had shattered wormholes, changes to wormhole mechanics and the addition of frig wormholes but does anyone think these things have improved or added any real value to wormhole space?

Something I have been asking for, for year now, is the addition of roaming sleepers that operate solely in wormhole space. These new sleepers will turn up on wormholes, at customs offices, citadels and in sites. They would also have the ability to travel through wormholes meaning they could follow/chase a fleet and perhaps reduce WH mass...

I'm very disappointed that drifters do not have a bigger presents in wormhole space. With the addition of roaming sleeper gangs, there should be a chance for a drifter battleship to accompany the sleeper gang! The chance of the drifter showing up could increase depending on the player force on field i.e if you have 10 dreads on field, there is a good chance a drifter will show up and open up on one of the caps.

The Drifter and roaming sleeper gang should drop some new and valuable loot. I think this will encourage people from all over to actively explore wormholes to hunt for the Roamers.

Thoughts?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#195 - 2015-10-02 09:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandrilla Sastrum
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:
Well I was in the process of trying out C4/C5s soon. But if CCP listens to any of the garbage in this thread, I think I'll refrain and go do incursions while you idiots slaughter each other to death. If CCP listens to bitterclowns like in this thread, then it will eventually ruin eve for the younger generation and all that'll be left playing eve is you bitter folks.


If Incursions are a viable alternative to wormholes for you, no one wants you as a potential neighbour either.


Believe me, I have no desire of dealing with drunken douchbags going through mid-life crisis running incursions. It just goes to show how bad WHs would be if it gets turn into a bloodbath like the bittervets in this forum are crying out for. I've only been playing eve for 18 months and so I'm still in the PVE phased of eve. The bittervets here no longer have the ability to play eve from a new player perspective and will eventually ruin it for them. Unless CCP wants eve to become "Bittervets Online", they would be wise to ignore the rubbish in this thread regarding WHs. Give me another year (by then I'll probably contract the bittervets disease) and I'll start to develop that thirst for blood that you bittervets have atm, but not until then. I don't want to see my gorgeous Paladins/Vargurs hunted down and slaughtered before I've made some iskies to replace them.
Sandrilla Sastrum
Doomheim
#196 - 2015-10-02 09:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandrilla Sastrum
Rek Seven wrote:
My corp mates and I were discussing the issues surrounding farming and the general lack of activity in wormhole space. We came to the conclusion that:

1. Sites should despawn 1 hour after the first trigger has been killed or the first escalation wave.
2. Wormhole space needs and expansion or at lease some interesting new features.

The first point is pretty self explanatory. Sites can still be ran in your home but if you want to farm all day, you need to use your static. This change will have a secondary effect of being a conflict driver because a wormholes static class will become an important factor and thus, people will fight over systems. The new escalation mechanic also enables groups do deny isk to farmers by shooting their triggers, which may also result in more fights.


The second point is something we have needed for years now. Sure we have had shattered wormholes, changes to wormhole mechanics and the addition of frig wormholes but does anyone think these things have improved or added any real value to wormhole space?

Something I have been asking for, for year now, is the addition of roaming sleepers that operate solely in wormhole space. These new sleepers will turn up on wormholes, at customs offices, citadels and in sites. They would also have the ability to travel through wormholes meaning they could follow/chase a fleet and perhaps reduce WH mass...

I'm very disappointed that drifters do not have a bigger presents in wormhole space. With the addition of roaming sleeper gangs, there should be a chance for a drifter battleship to accompany the sleeper gang! The chance of the drifter showing up could increase depending on the player force on field i.e if you have 10 dreads on field, there is a good chance a drifter will show up and open up on one of the caps.

The Drifter and roaming sleeper gang should drop some new and valuable loot. I think this will encourage people from all over to actively explore wormholes to hunt for the Roamers.

Thoughts?


More bittervet garbage as usual. I really, really hope CCP ignores this thread.

Or could it be that I'm to late to enjoy this game and should start playing a newer game?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2015-10-02 09:32:29 UTC
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:

More bittervet garbage as usual. I really, really hope CCP ignores this thread.

Or could it be that I'm to late to enjoy this game and should start playing a newer game?


What are you talking about you ******* moron? How is wanting to improve wormholes a bitter vet thing?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#198 - 2015-10-02 09:37:41 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Sandrilla Sastrum wrote:

More bittervet garbage as usual. I really, really hope CCP ignores this thread.

Or could it be that I'm to late to enjoy this game and should start playing a newer game?


What are you talking about you ******* moron? How is wanting to improve wormholes a bitter vet thing?



Your idea isn't solving the farmer online issue in c5 and c6, sadly


I hope CCP does not ignore this thread, as "bittervets" actually want more real players in wspace and less empty whs with alts, i honor that and agree there, bet you'd do as well.
If you want to farm "100% safe" not risking your marauder -> Incursions, 00 pve (afktar... ehm sorry, ishtar) or FW farming (Stealthbomber).
If you want high solo payouts with oyur marauder -> L5 Missions or Wspace with higher chance of beeing killed.
Yes you will lose a marauder if you run sites in c5 space sooner or later, but in longterm it will generate more isk than it costs to replace, if you keep an eye out (i.E. don't run sites when a pvp corp is next door and is watching you).
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2015-10-02 09:40:22 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:


Your idea isn't solving the farmer online issue in c5 and c6, sadly


It disables the ability to farm your home system for 4 days in a row, so please explain why this doesn't solve the issue?? Straight

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
#200 - 2015-10-02 09:56:53 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
RcTamiya wrote:


Your idea isn't solving the farmer online issue in c5 and c6, sadly


It disables the ability to farm your home system for 4 days in a row, so please explain why this doesn't solve the issue?? Straight


It does increase the frequency of new sites and farmers then will have 2-3 farms instead of 1 for same results.