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Two Step: killing the gravy train...

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Author
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#141 - 2015-09-29 11:00:48 UTC
Removing capital escalations without making proper balanced alternative for them will just make people leave wspace. Capital hunting is what a lot of groups do.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Nox52
Pterygopalatine
#142 - 2015-09-29 11:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nox52
Holy Bob! So much ******* around with ideas, some of them really hopelessly bad. Some people really don't have a clue.

Two (and a half) things are the issue with c5/c6 sites as it is.

1) The safest thing is to roll your holes and run your sites in a self contained bubble -always without mistake. You're an idiot if you don't do this.
2) You can run the same sites 4 days in a row - making you close your hole 4 days in a row now for safety
The 0.5 thing) Solo dread is a very viable method



Why are they issues?
1) Doesn't promote interaction with the outside. You are safe unless someone rolls into you - statistically unlikely esp in some tzs. Even then you can notice it and get out. Promotes very risk reduced gameplay. Yes, you have caps on field and blah blah but in reality your risk with the holes closed is very low.
2) Makes 1) even worse as it promotes 1) on a longer timescale. No incentive to go into the static when your home sites run out cause they don't run out that easily.
The 0.5 thing) I don't have an issue with solo dread because it can be easily multiboxable by a person or w/e. You can easily multibox the carrier+loki+dread style just as easily. Except the carrier+loki+dread is much closer to a real pvp fleet that solo dread - you have logi, a blap dread and subcap support already on field ready to go if someone drops. We should be promoting pve fleets as close as pvp as possible. Drop a couple subcaps on a solo dread and that's all she wrote when it runs out of stront.


Fixes:
1) Remove chaining of escals 4 days in a row. You are going to run out of home sites much faster. What do you do now? Sit with a thumb up your bum and pray to BOB to spawn new sites or go raid your static?
2) Increase the high class statics to take the mass of 4 caps and a smattering of subs before collapsing. Ie make it possible to put a carrier+loki+dread into the static and back home. Bonus points- discourages issue 1 as it's harder to roll yourself into little risk pve. But we'll be able to seed holes more easily! well too ******* hard - we have already demonstrated that it ain't that hard already to seed target holes anyways.

3?) Potentially change spawn points to semi random so solo dread not viable - I'd keep this one up the sleeve and see how fix 1+2 work. If those don't do it, roll this one out.



There you go. Now go fix the ******* poses, corp roles and rebalance the t3s. Make t3s able to be assembled in ******* wh space from the subs for the love of BOB and make them truly modular by allowing rigs to be refitted. Edit - forgot to add, delete data sites - not worth the time to probe them.

There you go, fixed wh space /sarcasm. Stop whining about boohoo too much isk being made. It's not how much but how you do it.
(cue penis jokes)
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#143 - 2015-09-29 11:43:49 UTC
Nox52 wrote:
Holy Bob! So much ******* around with ideas, some of them really hopelessly bad. Some people really don't have a clue.

Two (and a half) things are the issue with c5/c6 sites as it is.

1) The safest thing is to roll your holes and run your sites in a self contained bubble -always without mistake. You're an idiot if you don't do this.
2) You can run the same sites 4 days in a row - making you close your hole 4 days in a row now for safety
The 0.5 thing) Solo dread is a very viable method



Why are they issues?
1) Doesn't promote interaction with the outside. You are safe unless someone rolls into you - statistically unlikely esp in some tzs. Even then you can notice it and get out. Promotes very risk reduced gameplay. Yes, you have caps on field and blah blah but in reality your risk with the holes closed is very low.
2) Makes 1) even worse as it promotes 1) on a longer timescale. No incentive to go into the static when your home sites run out cause they don't run out that easily.
The 0.5 thing) I don't have an issue with solo dread because it can be easily multiboxable by a person or w/e. You can easily multibox the carrier+loki+dread style just as easily. Except the carrier+loki+dread is much closer to a real pvp fleet that solo dread - you have logi, a blap dread and subcap support already on field ready to go if someone drops. We should be promoting pve fleets as close as pvp as possible. Drop a couple subcaps on a solo dread and that's all she wrote when it runs out of stront.


Fixes:
1) Remove chaining of escals 4 days in a row. You are going to run out of home sites much faster. What do you do now? Sit with a thumb up your bum and pray to BOB to spawn new sites or go raid your static?
2) Increase the high class statics to take the mass of 4 caps and a smattering of subs before collapsing. Ie make it possible to put a carrier+loki+dread into the static and back home. Bonus points- discourages issue 1 as it's harder to roll yourself into little risk pve. But we'll be able to seed holes more easily! well too ******* hard - we have already demonstrated that it ain't that hard already to seed target holes anyways.

3?) Potentially change spawn points to semi random so solo dread not viable - I'd keep this one up the sleeve and see how fix 1+2 work. If those don't do it, roll this one out.



There you go. Now go fix the ******* poses, corp roles and rebalance the t3s. Make t3s able to be assembled in ******* wh space from the subs for the love of BOB and make them truly modular by allowing rigs to be refitted. Edit - forgot to add, delete data sites - not worth the time to probe them.

There you go, fixed wh space /sarcasm. Stop whining about boohoo too much isk being made. It's not how much but how you do it.
(cue penis jokes)


So the funny counter to your 4 caps through a wh idea is 2 higgs ravens. You're in a site doing escallations and I start cycling your way home w/ T1 ravens. I lock the door on your way home in less than a siege cycle. Since we're talking about risk averse farming - how many folks are going to open themselves up to being locked into their static while sieged/triages (or scrammed until they finish) in a site. It'll be the same game one wh over. Close up the static except the way home, bring in caps and farm.

Rolling into them starts the race to see if they can get out of the site and back home before you lock them in. You're only going to get farmers 1 or maybe twice before they stop leaving caps in the site. I just don't see a lot of folks accepting this kind of risk for 2 caps.

I'm still thinking about the no chaining idea. I just see the sites moving around 4x faster and pooling in dead wh more quickly. I get the desire to stop the 4 day chaining, but will 'no chaining' change anything 2 days after a major patch? All I see is that you multiply the site bookmarking task by 4. Am I missing something?
Nox52
Pterygopalatine
#144 - 2015-09-29 13:31:41 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Nox52 wrote:



So the funny counter to your 4 caps through a wh idea is 2 higgs ravens. You're in a site doing escallations and I start cycling your way home w/ T1 ravens. I lock the door on your way home in less than a siege cycle. Since we're talking about risk averse farming - how many folks are going to open themselves up to being locked into their static while sieged/triages (or scrammed until they finish) in a site. It'll be the same game one wh over. Close up the static except the way home, bring in caps and farm.

Rolling into them starts the race to see if they can get out of the site and back home before you lock them in. You're only going to get farmers 1 or maybe twice before they stop leaving caps in the site. I just don't see a lot of folks accepting this kind of risk for 2 caps.

I'm still thinking about the no chaining idea. I just see the sites moving around 4x faster and pooling in dead wh more quickly. I get the desire to stop the 4 day chaining, but will 'no chaining' change anything 2 days after a major patch? All I see is that you multiply the site bookmarking task by 4. Am I missing something?


There will be many ways to game my suggestion, same for as any other. The higgs ravens places the onus on the bear to maintain scouting awareness. And they'll be making it home only if they survive exiting the site/tackle. They survive site/tackle your options are to try safe log or extract down the rabbit hole towards the unknown - much more fun/content right? You remembered to pack a probe scanner and probes on your moros right? And if you wanted to bear in the static it is likely it'd have more than 1 or two holes open - harder to close, more prone to mistakes, likely to run into someone else. Even if they roll everything but the way home now you have two systems to roll into for targets instead of one - your absolute risk doubled but your relative risk maybe didn't increase so much - at least it is something.

I agree the choices aren't brilliant but welcome to wh space - where you face bleak and hard choices rather than rolling yourself in the cocoon of your own hole.


The way I see it is that all the factors of how it is setup at the moment push you towards rolling yourself in and bearing up. My proposed changes flip that pushing you out of the hole. In a way that don't change core mechanics dramatically and act together more than one change by itself. We need push and pull mechanics, atm it's all pull into rolling to safety.



It won't change day two after patch but 3rd month in when they realise that the home hole is barren they will be starved for sites in the static cause they need the isk. The nice thing is that the potential isk remains similar or increases as you can roll for more sites while increasing your exposure.


And if you can't be ****** bookmarking the spawn just drop a carrier+loki+dread.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
Riddle us this
#145 - 2015-09-29 14:40:11 UTC
Just throwing my support behind everything Nox said
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2015-09-29 22:09:46 UTC
Back in the day, I lived with a group in a C2 and we used to run sites in our c4 static in pvp ships. This led to some of the best experiences/fights I have had in wormhole space as we often got jumped and almost always won!

If (and I hope they do) CCP change sites to encourage static farming and increase the mass to allow 4 cap jumps, most groups will bring 2 dreads + guardians, sub-cap support and active scouts. I don't see a problem with this as I think it gets wormhole PVE back to what it used to be - a blend of pve and pvp. Thus farmers will soon become good PVP'er.

However, I rarely run sites these days and I'm unsure how much extra you get from an escalation. Is it worth fielding 2 caps?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2015-09-29 22:26:31 UTC
Regarding criting wormholes, would a simple solution be to introduce a mechanic that ensures one normal, healthy wormhole (not small or k-space) is always present in a system? Eg. if you crit all wormholes in a system, a fresh wormhole spawns.

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#148 - 2015-09-30 07:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Delt0r Garsk
Making it so that you can get 4 caps with a WH will change nothing. People who want to use it to drop will still drop and will drop with one more cap than before. Rolling is not really harder. How many people can't field a few carriers for rolling? I can and we are small.

Making solo impossible? No one in their right mind lives in c5/c6s with just one account. again even our small corp on a quiet day can field 6 caps if we need to.

Also logoff traps are a thing and happen plenty. And so blobs in WHs are also a thing.

Random Spawn points. Hmm I like the idea of much more interactive rats. I mean if i can't find real PvP it would be kinda cool to be able to have gf with rats. However just buffing tank, DPS etc, or even random spawn points does not give us anything more. We just need to slightly adjust how we run the site. But within a few days, we would know how to run the site just as fast as before. And just as safely. Unless there was like sleeper Capitols. That would be crazy. Probably perma tank 3 dreads or something. But its just a DPS tank numbers game. Nothing interesting.

Keeping WHs open. Well now we just support bigger WH entities over smaller ones, who will just move out. I mean if we can't run sites we not going to keep the space . The bigger corps can always blob more *and* bubble WHs or have cloaky hics waiting at every entrance without even stressing how many pilots they need online before running anything.

Blue doughnut in WH space anyone? I mean its almost becoming a thing now.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#149 - 2015-09-30 08:51:29 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Keeping WHs open. Well now we just support bigger WH entities over smaller ones, who will just move out. I mean if we can't run sites we not going to keep the space . The bigger corps can always blob more *and* bubble WHs or have cloaky hics waiting at every entrance without even stressing how many pilots they need online before running anything.


It will completely adjust the 'normal number'. The only reason the big corps can survive is because their members can run solo/duo farm systems in complete safety. Once you require all 300 members to survive off the income of a single system, you'll very quickly find the numbers drop way down.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#150 - 2015-09-30 11:06:32 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Keeping WHs open. Well now we just support bigger WH entities over smaller ones, who will just move out. I mean if we can't run sites we not going to keep the space . The bigger corps can always blob more *and* bubble WHs or have cloaky hics waiting at every entrance without even stressing how many pilots they need online before running anything.


It will completely adjust the 'normal number'. The only reason the big corps can survive is because their members can run solo/duo farm systems in complete safety. Once you require all 300 members to survive off the income of a single system, you'll very quickly find the numbers drop way down.


I just lost a dread to LZHKs with a log off trap like 20mins ago. I was solo (5 accounts) since the rest of the corp is playing ark. The rapier i lost doesn't count since that was a lagged/ DC (Logged on in time for to see the pod getting shot and reaped at the same time).

They just farm Dread kills LZHK. No problem with that, risk reward and all that. But to make it something that doesn't affect bigger corps but kills us smaller corps, and WH space will just be another null. Lots of systems and nothing in any of them, unless your in a huge alliance you just stay away.

As it is with my RL commitments, I have really give some serious thought to sticking around in WH space. I either have to do a big recruitment drive (time intensive), join one of these boring WH alliance (ok so hard knocks could be ok), or pack up and give null a go or something.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

KPomgPL
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2015-09-30 12:18:09 UTC
I don't think that small groups needs a handicap in wspace.

Messing with escalations and WH sizes can only reduce number of accounts in wspace... and we don't want it, right?
Removing escalations completely will just remove all those farming dreads and carriers out of wspace and bring marauders,rattlesnakes and ravens only.

Do you want big groups to starve? Maybe they will have to come to your hole, setup an another POS and make you starve.

about DeltOrs loss:
If it was a log off trap, you had to farm yesterday too. You are a greedy one, don't you?
Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#152 - 2015-09-30 12:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Missy Bunnz
Does everyone in this discussion understand the isk the farmers are making here?

Lets say you are starting from scratch and you have nothing. You need:
- 1x good dread pilot (~30b)
- 1x sitting/rolling dread pilot (~10b)
- 2x sitting/rolling carrier pilot (~15b)
- 1x scanner (assuming none of the above can do it) (~5b)
- 4x capitals (~15b)
- 1x setup (tower, fuel, structures etc) (~3b)
- 5x plex (to fund your 5 accounts) (~6b)

Total cost, ~85b and this is on the top end of what you'd expect to pay, realistically you can save 25-50% of this cost. Now, most of the cost of setup is never at risk (toon purchases), you are only risking some capitals (mitigated by logging off in them) and a tower.

In return, every time you run a site, counting blue loot, you get around 600m. You can run the same site 4 times. 2.4b. You can easily average, in c5 space, 10 sites a week. Weekly income? 24b. Using hero dread, its going to take from 15-30 minutes per site. If you are doing 10 sites, 4 times, thats 40 site-runs, or 10-20 hours over the week.

Monthly income from a C5 farm hole? 100b, or around 1.5-2.5b/hr

Now look back at the setup costs and running costs. Each month, you'll pay around ~6b for plexes, plus whatever replacements you need, say the entire fleet wipes every month and you have to setup a new tower (~18b), total profit for the month, in C5? 82b.

82b profit after replacing every capital, and the tower, and paying for plex. Every month.

And thats in C5 space, where you are relatively safe, there are plenty of empty systems to use and you are unlikely to get jumped.

If you move up to C6 space, which is (almost) entirely owned by renting alliances now, you can almost double that because the number of farmers and active holes significantly increases your individual site spawning rate, and averaging 20+ sites a week is easily achievable.

This isk flow has to stop. You must increase the risk of running capital escalations, without killing corps who rely on capital escalations at home to fund operations. Its the farmers who must be punished. Some of my (and others) earlier suggestions would do that.

- Increase connections to WH's that collapse their static
- Require an active, open, unmassed static WH before escalation waves spawn
Viggo Konstanin
Holy Hunters
H O L Y H U N T E R S
#153 - 2015-09-30 12:34:12 UTC
I don't run escalations.

Screwing with the isk return will make other people sad.

I play this game because I delight in the misery of others.

Therefore we should nerf this into the ground.
KPomgPL
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#154 - 2015-09-30 12:35:43 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:

- Increase connections to WH's that collapse their static
- Require an active, open, unmassed static WH before escalation waves spawn


If I would do cap spawns I would switch hero dread to 5-10 ravens. And still do cap spawns - income would be the same and you can do it on sem-afk.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#155 - 2015-09-30 13:20:48 UTC
KPomgPL wrote:
I don't think that small groups needs a handicap in wspace.

Messing with escalations and WH sizes can only reduce number of accounts in wspace... and we don't want it, right?
Removing escalations completely will just remove all those farming dreads and carriers out of wspace and bring marauders,rattlesnakes and ravens only.

Do you want big groups to starve? Maybe they will have to come to your hole, setup an another POS and make you starve.

about DeltOrs loss:
If it was a log off trap, you had to farm yesterday too. You are a greedy one, don't you?

Due to the fact that i have a life outside eve. Was at evesterdam in the weekend and have a job. It was the first escal i have run in 2 weeks. Also i only had time for 2 sites today. And they took ages. They almost derped and i almost got away.

LZHK have told me they leave seeded stuff inside for weeks to catch a kill. It was the smallest gang yet and if one of my accounts wasn't lagging out i may have tried some carriers+subcap dps.

Since the last time we got log off trapped. I haven't even made back the SRP account. When i have time to play eve i don't always want to just "run the WH". Sometimes i want to roam or have fun. Escals for me generally are not fun.

It pays to remember for every 100 man corp there is two 50 men corps, 4 25 persons corps and 8 ~12 men corps. If the meta is have 20 people online at all times to do anything you lose all the smaller corps and you stuck with only 2-3 big entities. Welcome to the new WH space. Just like 0.0. Join a big alliance/corp or bugger off.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Nox52
Pterygopalatine
#156 - 2015-09-30 13:33:35 UTC
Ok I have to ask, why did you have two webs on your nag?
Dobriy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2015-09-30 13:36:28 UTC
Viggo Konstanin wrote:
I don't run escalations.

Screwing with the isk return will make other people sad.

I play this game because I delight in the misery of others.

Therefore we should nerf this into the ground.


I really hope that this is sarcasm.

Anyway, most of the posts here exactly about it. Maybe it's just envy?
Most of you does nothing to change the situation in high lvl WHs.
All you can - just crying on the forums like a little greedy and envious kids.
KPomgPL
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#158 - 2015-09-30 13:43:31 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

LZHK have told me they leave seeded stuff inside for weeks to catch a kill. It was the smallest gang yet and if one of my accounts wasn't lagging out i may have tried some carriers+subcap dps.


Same group ware somewhere else two days ago, they just left a scout and came for you ;P

Delt0r Garsk wrote:

It pays to remember for every 100 man corp there is two 50 men corps, 4 25 persons corps and 8 ~12 men corps. If the meta is have 20 people online at all times to do anything you lose all the smaller corps and you stuck with only 2-3 big entities. Welcome to the new WH space. Just like 0.0. Join a big alliance/corp or bugger off.


Most time I play almost alone and have plenty things to do.
Just avoid larger groups if you don't have enough ppl online. If they show weak points, hit them hard.
If they come for you, well new POS is cheap ;)
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#159 - 2015-09-30 14:16:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Neckbeard Nolyfe
Missy Bunnz wrote:
Does everyone in this discussion understand the isk the farmers are making here?

You can easily average, in c5 space, 10 sites a week

If you move up to C6 space, which is (almost) entirely owned by renting alliances now, you can almost double that because the number of farmers and active holes significantly increases your individual site spawning rate, and averaging 20+ sites a week is easily achievable.




Where are your numbers coming from?

~lvl 60 paladin~

Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#160 - 2015-09-30 14:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Missy Bunnz
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:


Where are your numbers coming from?


Out of my ass? Years of experience? Easily provable? Take your pick. I made all these numbers up during the course of the post. Feel free to dispute any of them.

10 sites a week is about the average we've seen since moving back to C5's (~6 months history).
20 sites a week is maybe a touch high for C6's, but the average C6 we connect to has lots of sites, and is populated by a farmer.
600m per site is a rough C5 estimate on blue loot, which is about average (some sites less, some more), based on personal knowledge of sleeper loot.
Capital prices are 'guestimates', based on what i pay when I buy my capitals, ~6b for a good hero dread moros, 3b for 2nd moros, 2b per carrier.
Character prices are 'guestimates' (I haven't done character trading since plexes were 200m each) and could be way out.
Tower/Mod costs are 'guestimates', but are an upper maximum.
Plex prices are based on 1.2b per, which is roughly right last i checked.
Time to run a hero dread site is based on watching farmers do it.

I mean, don't audit my figures, they aren't perfect, but they will all be within the ballpark.

The sites/week figure can probably be argued, depends on luck, how many others are running sites, etc, but its irrelevant to the argument. Hell, even if you halve that value, the profit is still amazing and the isk/hr doesn't change, just the total monthly profit changes.