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Two Step: killing the gravy train...

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Author
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#161 - 2015-09-30 15:10:28 UTC
Nox52 wrote:
Ok I have to ask, why did you have two webs on your nag?

That is a long and funny story, yea that is not a mistake i refitted to that as soon as the saber was on Dscan. Thou i did think i changed ammo to sabot... Meh, not like that would have changed anything.

Also note the name of our corp. We try stuff in TQ not in Sisi. For the most part i have a lot of fun in this game. But i really need to rethink my strategy in WH space. I am almost losing dreads faster than i can pay for them.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#162 - 2015-09-30 15:14:54 UTC
KPomgPL wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

LZHK have told me they leave seeded stuff inside for weeks to catch a kill. It was the smallest gang yet and if one of my accounts wasn't lagging out i may have tried some carriers+subcap dps.


Same group ware somewhere else two days ago, they just left a scout and came for you ;P

Delt0r Garsk wrote:

It pays to remember for every 100 man corp there is two 50 men corps, 4 25 persons corps and 8 ~12 men corps. If the meta is have 20 people online at all times to do anything you lose all the smaller corps and you stuck with only 2-3 big entities. Welcome to the new WH space. Just like 0.0. Join a big alliance/corp or bugger off.


Most time I play almost alone and have plenty things to do.
Just avoid larger groups if you don't have enough ppl online. If they show weak points, hit them hard.
If they come for you, well new POS is cheap ;)

True enough. As even with my very very slack running of escals, we are isk positive. But i wouldn't call a pos and what is in it cheap.

Yea i happen to know that i may have been too slack on opsec at evesterdam combined with some lucky chains. But again LZHK have said they often wait that long with some groups. It is not like they are hiding it.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

KPomgPL
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2015-09-30 15:24:32 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

True enough. As even with my very very slack running of escals, we are isk positive. But i wouldn't call a pos and what is in it cheap.

Make it cheap, you don't need 90% of that stuff.

Delt0r Garsk wrote:

Yea i happen to know that i may have been too slack on opsec at evesterdam combined with some lucky chains. But again LZHK have said they often wait that long with some groups. It is not like they are hiding it.

There is almost always someone watching you. At least LZHX confired it. Get used to it.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#164 - 2015-09-30 15:28:28 UTC
KPomgPL wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

True enough. As even with my very very slack running of escals, we are isk positive. But i wouldn't call a pos and what is in it cheap.

Make it cheap, you don't need 90% of that stuff.

Delt0r Garsk wrote:

Yea i happen to know that i may have been too slack on opsec at evesterdam combined with some lucky chains. But again LZHK have said they often wait that long with some groups. It is not like they are hiding it.

There is almost always someone watching you. At least LZHX confired it. Get used to it.

But i likzes all my stuff ;D. In fact we are pretty empty right now.

Eyes on me yea (as i do on them). But this was a much smaller force this time. It was like they wanted to give me a fair fight. To bad about the DC and lag, i even had no side effects after taking 2 sets of drugs.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
Undead Nation
#165 - 2015-10-01 11:10:10 UTC
Not telling how, but we farm our static and each 7 pilots fleet generates ~ 1.1 b/h without ANY limits (just rageroll for new c5 to farm)....
so actually you don't need Escalations, in fact they're just an easier solution, with "more risk" and less content created ...
However, the amount of groups taking on a 30 men fleet is as low as the amount of groups taking down 7-9 caps + subs on grid .... risk ? none if you aint seeded....

However i've began to farm farmers C5s with intresting results, they ALLWAYS warp in their caps to escalate on you and smacktalk in local a lot, as soon as Caps show up on shortrange D -> mjd out
Now the poor farmer has to deal with a quadescalation or has to wait until the site does despawn, gg

Also it's difficoult to take anybody who is abusing the farming mechanics serious, you guys want to change it, but farm as much as you can to become rich....
All of you guys can in fact change this meta, EVERYBODY refuses to.

Yes CCP can also change mechanics as k162 spawnrates in busy systems, npc kill api, ... you named a lot here
BUT -> do you really believe it does change or influent YOUR style to hunt?! I Doubt it.

Removing escalations entirely is in fact the only approach to get rid of all those farmers in 1 shot, right now they don't care about mechanics beeing changed and adapt.
It's wrong, that groups became so big, that they "need" farming C5s instead of farming their static as Team alltogether...
What do you guys think happens if Pingwarriors can't sit in their farm printing isk and wait for "caps tackeled" pings?!
1.most of them stop playing and complain a lot about it
2. few of them suddenly will get active again, because they have to....

C5 and C6 space in fact needs activity, this does not mean 1 guy multiboxing his farm, i am talking about more corps who actively hunt each other and expose themselves into space while they farm.

There's a few solutions to approach this:

1. players change their gameplay and farm their statics instead of having several no-content-farming-C5s, doing this will force them to roll WHs for farming AND secure them frequently

2. remove cap escalations and force 1)

3. change jumpmass to allow at least 2 caps pass twice, also maybe reconsider to allow caps jump statics FROM a c2 and C4 into c5/c6 and limit it to this cap which left that low class wh, so -> no cap is allowed to jump from c5/c6/LS/HS/00 to c4/c2 if it didn't jump from that c2/c4 into that c5/c6/00/LS/HS (it wouldn't allow you to use those c2/c4 as highway for caps, but it would allow the inhibitants to actually be dangerous to farmers, again this increases risk pvp wise)
-> side effect of 3) is that rolling a 4b wormhole is needing at least 2 more Higgs-BS.

4. drag pvp corps into wspace, right now most c5 corps hunt in nullsec more frequently than in wspace (check your killboards guys, the main content has become 00....) BUT -> if you guys blobb hard, don't expect your prey to fight you again ;)

So considering that wspace mechanics excist for ages now, it worked fine until a few years ago, people started to gather in even larger groups and more and more wormholes became an empty farm, it was the players causing this problem, we as community started to play eve different than in it's early days, as result our influence on this sandbox had an impact, an impact which is the reason for our problem today ;)
C6 full of farmers ? great, why didn't "WHCFC" purge them?
C5 deserted and mostly farms? great, seed in scouts, check activity and seed in a fleet to kill them.
Farmers aint delivering you ANY content if not beeing caught offguard, they rather logoff/cloak up and sit you out, don't expect them to want ANY changes, those who complain are people who try to actively find content in wspace.
Sadly those who complain are either burnt out or dislike effort, we in fact need less pingwarriors.

Isk/h wise, c1-3 still is very low ... c4 needs a rework, sleepers can spawn offgrid .... c5 and c6 are fine with their isk/h and monthly possible income, this incluses escalations, however i rather see a rework of this mechanic to make multiboxxing difficult.

regards
rc
Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#166 - 2015-10-01 12:37:47 UTC
No solution that forces a entity to choose between PVP and PVE is going to deliver the outcomes people expect and hope for and any solution that bases itself around 'farm the static instead of home' forces people to make that choice. It is not a solution, it will aggravate the problem. It will lead to more ganks, but not more fights.

The solution is not to make sites harder.
The solution is not to adjust sleeper AI.

For 2-3 years, the difficulty in sites was enough of a barrier to this kind of farming. As always, static content (npc ai, not content in our static WH's!) eventually gets worked out, to the point where we can now run 5 accounts and farm the hardest WH content available while multiboxing and reading reddit. If you change the AI, you may make things difficult for another 1-2 years, but then we'll be right back here again.

The solution is to cause more interaction between entities in WH Space.
The solution is to punish, prevent or inhibit peoples ability to 'shut themselves off'.
The solution is to let players properly police these farmers themselves.


The last poster says seed and hit the farmer. My numbers prove how ineffective that actually is. You could hit 2 capitals (hero dread + sitting dread), 10 times a month and still he'll make a profit. Hell, if you repeatedly hit them, they'll just move to another system. There are many C5's. We can't seed them all (although some are trying!).

KPomgPL
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#167 - 2015-10-01 12:46:13 UTC
I understand there are small groups which are ok with being small and pure. They don't need ISK to gank miners in nullsec. High class wh life is about something else. Here wallet is a factor too.

Lets say there was a large capital/t3 fight and losers lost about 70billion in that fight. Do you really expect them to form groups of 7 pilots, jump to theirs static and farm with 1,1b/h per group speed? How many days they will have to farm without another big fight? Do you really think PVPrs want to farm that long? How many of them will still use more than one account on grid? And how theirs fits would look like?

Messing with escalations and WH sizes will change wormholes we know.
If you really want to get rid of solo escalation farmers only, you could propose increase HP of sleeples guardians.
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
Undead Nation
#168 - 2015-10-01 13:15:08 UTC
KPomgPL wrote:
I understand there are small groups which are ok with being small and pure. They don't need ISK to gank miners in nullsec. High class wh life is about something else. Here wallet is a factor too.

Lets say there was a large capital/t3 fight and losers lost about 70billion in that fight. Do you really expect them to form groups of 7 pilots, jump to theirs static and farm with 1,1b/h per group speed? How many days they will have to farm without another big fight? Do you really think PVPrs want to farm that long? How many of them will still use more than one account on grid? And how theirs fits would look like?

Messing with escalations and WH sizes will change wormholes we know.
If you really want to get rid of solo escalation farmers only, you could propose increase HP of sleeples guardians.


i can tell you, that we in fact have no trouble to generate the same isk as you do with escalations in almost identical speed.
Of course, competing with Magnetars is a different story....
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#169 - 2015-10-01 14:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
noted

Yaay!!!!

Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#170 - 2015-10-01 14:19:38 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:

i can tell you, that we in fact have no trouble to generate the same isk as you do with escalations in almost identical speed.
Of course, competing with Magnetars is a different story....


I highly doubt it, until you show me some numbers.
KPomgPL
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#171 - 2015-10-01 14:20:32 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:

i can tell you, that we in fact have no trouble to generate the same isk as you do with escalations in almost identical speed.


but with what kind of effort?
It is easier to stand up with capital farms. I cant imagine how I could encourage and organize my old corp mates to farm 70b in static with mass limitations.

Without escalations. I'd rather set up medium POS in random no pvp wh(short take over) and farm all anomalies just like at home. No farming in static anyway.
Peter Moonlight
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#172 - 2015-10-01 14:23:33 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:
RcTamiya wrote:

i can tell you, that we in fact have no trouble to generate the same isk as you do with escalations in almost identical speed.
Of course, competing with Magnetars is a different story....


I highly doubt it, until you show me some numbers.

This guy is expert at talking crap and lies, just ignore, he runs sites in guardians/vigilants/vindis and some crap, and hes pretty bad at it, and has no idea about escalations etc.. He was in Lazerhawks and was probably top 3 worst people I have ever played with.
Every few weeks he contacts a PVP entity with alt/main and say how Lazerhawks is evicting them or logoffed in there, lol `nuff said.
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
Undead Nation
#173 - 2015-10-01 15:23:03 UTC
Peter Moonlight wrote:
Missy Bunnz wrote:
RcTamiya wrote:

i can tell you, that we in fact have no trouble to generate the same isk as you do with escalations in almost identical speed.
Of course, competing with Magnetars is a different story....


I highly doubt it, until you show me some numbers.

This guy is expert at talking crap and lies, just ignore, he runs sites in guardians/vigilants/vindis and some crap, and hes pretty bad at it, and has no idea about escalations etc.. He was in Lazerhawks and was probably top 3 worst people I have ever played with.
Every few weeks he contacts a PVP entity with alt/main and say how Lazerhawks is evicting them or logoffed in there, lol `nuff said.



why so mad bro ?
And nope we aint using any guardians, vindicators or vigilants .... and yes we have real numbers 4 sites/h ~ 260mil = 1,1b, right ? ;)

you try to expose me here because i disagree with some stuff inside of lazerhawks and left, i left lazerhawks in good terms leaving a moros i DONATED to this corp, but keep going mate.

This "worst player" in example once saved your proteus when you yolod into certain death throguh 6j of chain AND helped lazerhawks multiboxing at god damn 2 am with 3 multiboxxed logis .... otherwise you would have lost that fight, just saying :)
But stuf like this sohuldn't be said on forums, sad that you start crap like this in a feedback thread....
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#174 - 2015-10-01 15:35:35 UTC
Half of russia is running c5 static sites with 2 Basis, a Rattle or two and a boatload of Gilas. While far from ideal, it's a nightmare to gank properly.
Peter Moonlight
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#175 - 2015-10-01 17:34:02 UTC
RcTamiya wrote:
Peter Moonlight wrote:
Missy Bunnz wrote:
RcTamiya wrote:

i can tell you, that we in fact have no trouble to generate the same isk as you do with escalations in almost identical speed.
Of course, competing with Magnetars is a different story....


I highly doubt it, until you show me some numbers.

This guy is expert at talking crap and lies, just ignore, he runs sites in guardians/vigilants/vindis and some crap, and hes pretty bad at it, and has no idea about escalations etc.. He was in Lazerhawks and was probably top 3 worst people I have ever played with.
Every few weeks he contacts a PVP entity with alt/main and say how Lazerhawks is evicting them or logoffed in there, lol `nuff said.



why so mad bro ?
And nope we aint using any guardians, vindicators or vigilants .... and yes we have real numbers 4 sites/h ~ 260mil = 1,1b, right ? ;)

you try to expose me here because i disagree with some stuff inside of lazerhawks and left, i left lazerhawks in good terms leaving a moros i DONATED to this corp, but keep going mate.

This "worst player" in example once saved your proteus when you yolod into certain death throguh 6j of chain AND helped lazerhawks multiboxing at god damn 2 am with 3 multiboxxed logis .... otherwise you would have lost that fight, just saying :)
But stuf like this sohuldn't be said on forums, sad that you start crap like this in a feedback thread....

Keep trying hard RC.
Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#176 - 2015-10-01 17:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Missy Bunnz
RcTamiya wrote:
4 sites/h ~ 260mil = 1,1b, right ?


4 sites an hour with what kind of fleet?

Because hero dread is going to do 4 fully escalated sites an hour (non-magnetar), require 5 accounts, and make 2.8b+. That is more than triple your 'same numbers'. With 10 toons running sites and 2-3 humans, that goes up to (non-magnetar) to 10-11 sites/hour, or 7-7.5b.

Either way, nowhere near the numbers you get from cap escalations.
Taron Skjem
Slow Chidlren at Play
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#177 - 2015-10-01 17:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Taron Skjem
well as member of SM.RB i can easily confirm what RC told you guys there. and we are not siting in vindis and vigis :-D what a stupid bullshit would this be? the vigis and vindis you are talking about, mr. lazerhook, is part of our pvp doctrin what saved your ass last time you called for help. not our pve fleet.

also as former member of hole control, comparing the income i have today as member of SM.RB, we have much higher payout then having a shitload of people on the grid and escalating the sites. just quickly burn through the sites with subcaps, rageroll the static and keep on farming. on this way, you indeed, create more content as well.

but last of all i cannot just go over the bullcrap, mr. cry-serhawk is spreading here. i must confess that RC is indeed a very competent FC and i think the past confirms that this works good. "call SM.RB, we are losing our shield fleet" *saved by sm.rb, "we are engaging SM.RB, batphone for help and blobb them with tripple the amount of pilots" *most ships of sm.rb made it out alive*, "we lost a farming chimera to sm.rb" *damnit, sm.rb stroke again*.

just keep in mind that you either batphone "one of the 3 worst players" as backup, call for help when you fight him and from time to time have some serious losses to him. well, what does this say about you moony?
RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
Undead Nation
#178 - 2015-10-01 17:55:31 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:
RcTamiya wrote:
4 sites/h ~ 260mil = 1,1b, right ?


4 sites an hour with what kind of fleet?

Because hero dread is going to do 4 fully escalated sites an hour (non-magnetar), require 5 accounts, and make 2.8b+. That is more than triple your 'same numbers'. With 10 toons running sites and 2-3 humans, that goes up to (non-magnetar) to 10-11 sites/hour, or 7-7.5b.

Either way, nowhere near the numbers you get from cap escalations.



can your caps MJD into safety after 1 shotting that sabre going for you? :)
Also you speak of an extreme case, in general you farm with at least 5-10 real players on TS leaving you with an average of 5 sites to farm so you have 5x 700 => 3.5b in ~ 1-2 hours (preperations needed for closing + forming etc), the average share i had in about 2 years of c5 life was ~ 180mil/day, also while homesites are limited statics aint.
In SM.RB everybody has an average of 500+ mil/day if we really farm, corpmates can confirm the numbers if you want.

Also solo/hero dread is a different story, you have a 3b isk ship on grid + at least 3 other minimum 1.5b isk caps each
our entire farming fleet has a value of ~ 5b (maybe even less) and can't be caught as easy as a dread (not impossible, but more difficult at least).
If you now compare -> 5 ppl pentaboxing (to compare 1 guy hero dreading ;) ) ~25 people, thats almost 3 fleets of our setup and we can generate about 3.3b/h, no problem at all.
Usually to reach 5b in loot we spend about 2 hours including scanning static, rolling wormholes away inside it and setup scouts.
Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#179 - 2015-10-01 18:41:30 UTC
Your numbers are wrong.

5 sites, including standing up a fleet and getting things going, do not take a competent group 1-2 hours to do. It'll be started, and finished, in 30-40 minutes tops. It'll take 10 toons (however you split those amongst humans), which means each TOON will earn 350m, for 40 minutes work.

Your numbers you are talking about go nowhere near that.

Its a pointless argument. I questioned your figures, you posted figures that don't match your claims, its stupid.

Capital Escalations are an unmatched ISK faucet, except maybe by incursions.

RcTamiya
Magister Mortalis.
Undead Nation
#180 - 2015-10-01 20:06:33 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:
Your numbers are wrong.

5 sites, including standing up a fleet and getting things going, do not take a competent group 1-2 hours to do. It'll be started, and finished, in 30-40 minutes tops. It'll take 10 toons (however you split those amongst humans), which means each TOON will earn 350m, for 40 minutes work.

Your numbers you are talking about go nowhere near that.

Its a pointless argument. I questioned your figures, you posted figures that don't match your claims, its stupid.

Capital Escalations are an unmatched ISK faucet, except maybe by incursions.



Issue is, yo ucan go with "per human" or "per character"
my claism are for per human, yours are for per character, of course we get different results :)