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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#581 - 2016-08-21 11:29:54 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
    • [/list]


    you mean like WHs


    oh yeah null bears got upset that scary monsters came out and ruined their ratting so they asked ccp to lower the spawn rate.


    If I could rollback only one change from the past couple of years, it would not be jump fatigue - it would be the nerf to null-to-null wormhole frequency and longevity.


    No empty quoting here!

    Interesting observation, during the week nullsec gets null -> low / highsec connections more often than on Saturdays and Sundays.
    Seems almost random..

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Delt0r Garsk
    Shits N Giggles
    #582 - 2016-08-21 11:41:13 UTC
    elitatwo wrote:


    No empty quoting here!

    Interesting observation, during the week nullsec gets null -> low / highsec connections more often than on Saturdays and Sundays.
    Seems almost random..

    That is probably more to do with the fact that they get used far more often in the weekends and go over mass limits.

    The "feeling" of what you find has a lot to do with how we go around collapsing them.

    AKA the scientist.

    Death and Glory!

    Well fun is also good.
    Cade Windstalker
    #583 - 2016-08-22 17:52:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
    elitatwo wrote:
    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    This much at least is provably false.

    Capitals are killing and dying more now than they were before jump fatigue. Jump Fatigue is hardly strangling capital content, if anything it's allowing people to use caps more not less.


    The lower base ehp has probably nothing to do with that..


    It really probably doesn't. If it was just deaths then I'd agree with you, but kills went up noticeably too. Also I can't think of any particular reason why an EHP decrease would lead to increased cap use. I think it's honestly just the increase in perceived safety since everywhere is no longer 30 minutes from PL/NC/Goon's staging system.

    That's all speculation on my part though. The fact of the matter is that Caps are being used more, not less, after the Jump Fatigue changes.
    Lando Tarsadan
    Doomheim
    #584 - 2016-08-23 14:40:44 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Hi Space Friends,

    Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
    • Altering jump ranges
    • Altering jump fatigue curves
    • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
    • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
    • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
    • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
    • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
    • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
    • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
    • What does local-content mean to you?

    [/list]


    I know most stuff here are centered around combat/stageing when looking at capitals/jumps and fatigue. My small corp is not centered around that nor claiming space. As we can not

    A. take it
    B. Defend it.

    But we do use some capitals.

    We use blackops, rorquals and Jump Freighters. Pprimarely to make small insursions into nullsec/NPC Nullsec to either ninja mine or steal resources.

    We have carriers and dread too but we do find them to be fine as the use for them are quite different than the 3 mentioned above.

    The blackops side is working great with the 8 ly. Thats around where it used to be which works. (awesome that some industrials can be bridged)

    But the rorqual is suffering at the 5 ly. atm we are having a hard time getting from lowsec to lowsec/null sec and have either no direct way or a one system choice to move it. which is mostly camped to death(the camps we can mitigate, but the main problem here being moving cyno alts around if the "detour" was selected. What would be a 5-6 direct route would be a 9-10 route instead. where the blackops is only 3-4 to reach the same destination. simply cause with the greater range we have more choices to place the cynos. That the rorq can take gates now makes little to no difference as it either hits a null system which is gate camped or low which is sourrounded by Highsec.

    So for your list.
    the rorq at least imho should get more range pref 10 ly or 8 ly like the blackops. other caps is nice to have.
    The fatigue as I see it now is fine. (maybe both the limit range and fatigue was a little to hard a nerf stick)
    I dont see the reason for making the ship get the fatigue. what it would enable in general is pilot moved ship1 clones back to station move ship2 rince repeat.
    I have not lived in sov space for a long time so my comment on thies changes would probably be wrong.
    the transform option would seem kinda weird for the rorqual as it already is an indy ship not a fighter. I know it can use drones and have shield/armor. but its not a ship asking to brought into battle.
    Drugs for jump fatigue removal with pretty hard side effects could be a good go between for the fatigue.
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #585 - 2016-08-26 10:12:06 UTC
    Lando Tarsadan wrote:
    [quote=CCP Larrikin]
    the rorq at least imho should get more range pref 10 ly or 8 ly like the blackops. other caps is nice to have.
    The fatigue as I see it now is fine. (maybe both the limit range and fatigue was a little to hard a nerf stick)
    I dont see the reason for making the ship get the fatigue. what it would enable in general is pilot moved ship1 clones back to station move ship2 rince repeat.
    I have not lived in sov space for a long time so my comment on thies changes would probably be wrong.
    the transform option would seem kinda weird for the rorqual as it already is an indy ship not a fighter. I know it can use drones and have shield/armor. but its not a ship asking to brought into battle.
    Drugs for jump fatigue removal with pretty hard side effects could be a good go between for the fatigue.



    no need to bring the rorqs jump range up at all and so long as ccp is still working to make null self sufficient soon even the JFs will have their range brought down to 5ly. The reason blops got their range increased was to compensate for them getting hit in the jump fatigue cross fire. the reason all ships need to have some level of fatigue is if they didn't large organisations could just put their capitals in staging systems and then use fatigueless ships to jump from one side of the universe to the other.

    BLOPS Hauler
    The 16.8km Bubble
    Kenrailae
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #586 - 2016-08-26 13:45:19 UTC
    Realizing there would need to be serious thought put into how to stop it from becoming exploitable to just move quickly, a move mode for caps would be one of the best ways to deal with some of the biggest problems of fatigue. In terms of regionalized gameplay, current fatigue is pretty close to mechanically doing what needed done. But outside of that, it's brutal.


    At the end of the day this is a game. Who enjoys spending X days waiting on a timer to tick down to move? And even more if you happen to miss the alliance move Op?

    The Law is a point of View

    The NPE IS a big deal
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #587 - 2016-08-26 14:56:17 UTC
    Kenrailae wrote:
    Realizing there would need to be serious thought put into how to stop it from becoming exploitable to just move quickly, a move mode for caps would be one of the best ways to deal with some of the biggest problems of fatigue. In terms of regionalized gameplay, current fatigue is pretty close to mechanically doing what needed done. But outside of that, it's brutal.


    At the end of the day this is a game. Who enjoys spending X days waiting on a timer to tick down to move? And even more if you happen to miss the alliance move Op?




    to be fair the entire point is to make them hard to move. So if you put them in that location you commit to it.

    BLOPS Hauler
    The 16.8km Bubble
    Kenrailae
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #588 - 2016-08-26 15:16:13 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Kenrailae wrote:
    Realizing there would need to be serious thought put into how to stop it from becoming exploitable to just move quickly, a move mode for caps would be one of the best ways to deal with some of the biggest problems of fatigue. In terms of regionalized gameplay, current fatigue is pretty close to mechanically doing what needed done. But outside of that, it's brutal.


    At the end of the day this is a game. Who enjoys spending X days waiting on a timer to tick down to move? And even more if you happen to miss the alliance move Op?




    to be fair the entire point is to make them hard to move. So if you put them in that location you commit to it.



    The entire point was to stop them from moving across the galaxy in 20 minutes, not punish people for moving.

    The Law is a point of View

    The NPE IS a big deal
    Sonya Corvinus
    Grant Village
    #589 - 2016-08-26 16:33:49 UTC
    Kenrailae wrote:
    At the end of the day this is a game. Who enjoys spending X days waiting on a timer to tick down to move? And even more if you happen to miss the alliance move Op?


    How often does your alliance move where you can't make time? If you miss a move op, grab friends to help you move (and if you can't find people willing, you need a new alliance) or simply sell everything and re-buy in the new location.

    Kenrailae wrote:
    The entire point was to stop them from moving across the galaxy in 20 minutes, not punish people for moving.


    Stopping people from moving caps across the galaxy in 20 minutes and punishing people for moving are the same thing
    Kenrailae
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #590 - 2016-08-26 16:43:43 UTC
    Sonya Corvinus wrote:
    Kenrailae wrote:
    At the end of the day this is a game. Who enjoys spending X days waiting on a timer to tick down to move? And even more if you happen to miss the alliance move Op?


    How often does your alliance move where you can't make time? If you miss a move op, grab friends to help you move (and if you can't find people willing, you need a new alliance) or simply sell everything and re-buy in the new location.

    Kenrailae wrote:
    The entire point was to stop them from moving across the galaxy in 20 minutes, not punish people for moving.


    Stopping people from moving caps across the galaxy in 20 minutes and punishing people for moving are the same thing



    I'm not in an alliance anymore, but I used to be in Suddenly Spaceships. We were mercenary/Nomadic. We moved alot. Often across New Eden for 2-3 weeks at a time to fulfill contracts. Phoebe killed that lifestyle.







    They are absolutely not. Not sure who you are or what you've experienced in Eve, but before Phoebe, it was a frequent occurrence for CFC, PL, NC. BL, every other large entity out there to keep their cap fleet in one or two locations. Someone would batphone them from across the map, and you could watch the cyno chain light up on the map as they moved across the map to drop 80 caps on your head, in 5-20 minutes.


    THAT is what Phoebe was built to stop.



    It was not designed to make moving to a new corp, or a new region as part of a new alliance, or just moving to get a change of scenery for a few weeks a punishment on a personal level for changing what you were doing in the game.

    The Law is a point of View

    The NPE IS a big deal
    Sonya Corvinus
    Grant Village
    #591 - 2016-08-26 16:51:23 UTC
    Kenrailae wrote:
    I'm not in an alliance anymore, but I used to be in Suddenly Spaceships. We were mercenary/Nomadic. We moved alot. Often across New Eden for 2-3 weeks at a time to fulfill contracts. Phoebe killed that lifestyle.


    No, it killed it for caps. I'm in WH space. we very, very often find a hole we want to murder and take a backdoor entrance that requires dozens of jumps. Easy to do, but again, just not with caps. Working as intended

    Quote:
    They are absolutely not. Not sure who you are or what you've experienced in Eve, but before Phoebe, it was a frequent occurrence for CFC, PL, NC. BL, every other large entity out there to keep their cap fleet in one or two locations. Someone would batphone them from across the map, and you could watch the cyno chain light up on the map as they moved across the map to drop 80 caps on your head, in 5-20 minutes.

    THAT is what Phoebe was built to stop.

    It was not designed to make moving to a new corp, or a new region as part of a new alliance, or just moving to get a change of scenery for a few weeks a punishment on a personal level for changing what you were doing in the game.


    Obviously it was designed to make batphoning more difficult. It also was designed to make the universe feel big again. If you're moving to a new corp, it should be difficult as you will be there for a long time. Think about where you want to live. If you want a change of scenery, great! Grab an interceptor, move out there and set up a new base. You shouldn't be able to trivially move the biggest ships in the game across the map simply because you're bored. You now need to think about and plan where you live and where you store your assets.

    You want a change of scenery, seed jump clones around the map and use WHs to jump back to HS and buy ships to seed those bases.
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #592 - 2016-08-26 16:57:29 UTC
    Kenrailae wrote:


    .......
    THAT is what Phoebe was built to stop.



    It was not designed to make moving to a new corp, or a new region as part of a new alliance, or just moving to get a change of scenery for a few weeks a punishment on a personal level for changing what you were doing in the game.



    It was not simple meant to stop bat phones it was meant to put a short leash on power projection


    any ease you maintain in moving personnel and equipment (capital or otherwise) lengthens that leash. if it were just to stop batphones then you would be right and there would be no need to put limits on jump bridge networks and industrial but that was just a small part

    BLOPS Hauler
    The 16.8km Bubble
    Kenrailae
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #593 - 2016-08-26 16:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
    Not working as intended..... which is why CCP is revisiting it and has said it's not doing the job the way they want to do it...... I guess you conveniently forgot that though, or did WH's not get the fanfest streams?



    At the end of the day, it's a game. People have lives outside of Eve, I know WH's may not, but the rest of Eve does. If we plugged in and lived in Eve 24/7, then I and CCP may agree with you. But since people have limits on when they can/can't play and what is realistic in how much time a task should take, Jump fatigue is a broken mechanic, as it is too much of an active punishment on players. As it is, again, CCP has said it's not doing the job the way they wanted it to. It's bad gameplay and too much of punishment.



    Maybe you should spend an hour or few in a K space station and catch up on the fanfest streams?




    EDIT:
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Kenrailae wrote:


    .......
    THAT is what Phoebe was built to stop.



    It was not designed to make moving to a new corp, or a new region as part of a new alliance, or just moving to get a change of scenery for a few weeks a punishment on a personal level for changing what you were doing in the game.



    It was not simple meant to stop bat phones it was meant to put a short leash on power projection


    any ease you maintain in moving personnel and equipment (capital or otherwise) lengthens that leash. if it were just to stop batphones then you would be right and there would be no need to put limits on jump bridge networks and industrial but that was just a small part





    That power projection was far and away the mass movement of capitals, through batphones and cap chains to engage in fights huge distances away. There were some instances of other methods, but they weren't the 'big problem,' as evidenced by how relatively unhindered it is still to move a force through gates and wormholes.


    EDIT 2: If memory serves, CCP has since buffed WH force projection by increasing WH spawns/connections. Though I'd have to dig in the devblogs for that, but that either happened right around the same time, or after.

    The Law is a point of View

    The NPE IS a big deal
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #594 - 2016-08-26 17:13:04 UTC
    Kenrailae wrote:

    EDIT 2: If memory serves, CCP has since buffed WH force projection by increasing WH spawns/connections. Though I'd have to dig in the devblogs for that, but that either happened right around the same time, or after.


    buffed LS/LS nurffed all NS. tbf that nerf was actually done after a buff but now im repeating myself not a page later.



    if you let ppl jump freely they can store there ships in locations all through out NPC null and ls effectively changing nothing. damn there i go again

    BLOPS Hauler
    The 16.8km Bubble
    Sonya Corvinus
    Grant Village
    #595 - 2016-08-26 17:16:50 UTC
    Kenrailae wrote:
    Not working as intended..... which is why CCP is revisiting it and has said it's not doing the job the way they want to do it...... I guess you conveniently forgot that though, or did WH's not get the fanfest streams?

    At the end of the day, it's a game. People have lives outside of Eve, I know WH's may not, but the rest of Eve does. If we plugged in and lived in Eve 24/7, then I and CCP may agree with you. But since people have limits on when they can/can't play and what is realistic in how much time a task should take, Jump fatigue is a broken mechanic, as it is too much of an active punishment on players. As it is, again, CCP has said it's not doing the job the way they wanted it to. It's bad gameplay and too much of punishment.

    Maybe you should spend an hour or few in a K space station and catch up on the fanfest streams?


    I have seen them, thanks for the condescension though, it definitely makes me take you seriously Roll

    It should be difficult to live in null. Null is already entirely too safe, and entirely too easy to live in. You want to live outside of HS? You want to have space that you own? Commit to it. Giving in to whining nullbears who want HS safety with caps is not something I support. You don't like jump fatigue? You don't want to commit to where you chose to live? Stay out of null.

    Yes, we should punish nullbears who want HS safety and quick, easy travel. They chose to live somewhere where they own the space, so own that space.
    Kenrailae
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #596 - 2016-08-26 17:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Kenrailae wrote:

    EDIT 2: If memory serves, CCP has since buffed WH force projection by increasing WH spawns/connections. Though I'd have to dig in the devblogs for that, but that either happened right around the same time, or after.


    buffed LS/LS nurffed all NS. tbf that nerf was actually done after a buff but now im repeating myself not a page later.



    if you let ppl jump freely they can store there ships in locations all through out NPC null and ls effectively changing nothing. damn there i go again




    No one's arguing that it isn't a very tricky beast to figure out. I agree with that completely. If you don't like repeating yourself you're on the wrong forum, I regret to inform you. But you should know that.






    The ships stored all over NPC null argument is also not much an argument as between interceptors, JC's, and death clones, it's already well within the realm of possibility, and those who would, do.





    EDIT:

    Sonya Corvinus wrote:
    I have seen them, thanks for the condescension though, it definitely makes me take you seriously Roll

    It should be difficult to live in null. Null is already entirely too safe, and entirely too easy to live in. You want to live outside of HS? You want to have space that you own? Commit to it. Giving in to whining nullbears who want HS safety with caps is not something I support. You don't like jump fatigue? You don't want to commit to where you chose to live? Stay out of null.

    Yes, we should punish nullbears who want HS safety and quick, easy travel. They chose to live somewhere where they own the space, so own that space.



    Gee if only it were just null that was punished by jump fatigue..... Roll

    The Law is a point of View

    The NPE IS a big deal
    Sonya Corvinus
    Grant Village
    #597 - 2016-08-26 17:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
    Kenrailae wrote:
    Gee if only it were just null that was punished by jump fatigue..... Roll


    Gee, if only you realized what I say is applicable to any group. If you choose to live outside of HS, commit to your space.

    You've yet to make a single rational argument as to why jump fatigue isn't a good thing other than "I want EVE to be easier for me" while simultaneously ignoring the advise given to accomplish your goal of "trying something new" without incurring jump fatigue.

    EVE is supposed to be big, and it's supposed to be a difficult universe to live in, doubly so outside of HS. Why do all the people complaining about jump fatigue not want that anymore?

    And also, your continued condescension and sarcasm say a lot about you. Keep it up champ! Are you capable of a conversation like an adult?
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #598 - 2016-08-26 17:34:41 UTC
    Kenrailae wrote:


    Gee if only it were just null that was punished by jump fatigue..... Roll


    they tend to be the only ones i hear complaining about it.

    HS it's irrelevant

    WH it's irrelevant

    LS it's one of the best things to have happened.

    only down side we really got from it in low was with our blops. We can no longer hit the cap booster and GTFO if we landed in a trap but thats not really a bad thing.

    BLOPS Hauler
    The 16.8km Bubble
    Kenrailae
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #599 - 2016-08-26 18:00:24 UTC
    Sonya Corvinus wrote:
    Kenrailae wrote:
    Gee if only it were just null that was punished by jump fatigue..... Roll


    Gee, if only you realized what I say is applicable to any group. If you choose to live outside of HS, commit to your space.

    You've yet to make a single rational argument as to why jump fatigue isn't a good thing other than "I want EVE to be easier for me" while simultaneously ignoring the advise given to accomplish your goal of "trying something new" without incurring jump fatigue.

    EVE is supposed to be big, and it's supposed to be a difficult universe to live in, doubly so outside of HS. Why do all the people complaining about jump fatigue not want that anymore?

    And also, your continued condescension and sarcasm say a lot about you. Keep it up champ! Are you capable of a conversation like an adult?




    I've made several. You've chosen to ignore them because 'I'm in a wormhole and it's all fine for me!' What is the point of continuing to talk to you?

    If you'd bothered to read, you'd have deduced it's not about making Eve easier, it's about making it less of a punishment to... IDK, have other things to do outside of Eve? Or play the game in a more nomadic fashion? Or heck, even do something as simple as change corps. But again, you just brush that under the rug as 'working as intended' despite it not being very much not as intended, and 'commit to your space!!!!' even though the sole point of being nomadic is not having a set space..... or moving to a new alliance... well... you're moving to new pace to try to commit to.. but you ignore all that with 'I'm in a WH, it's all good for me!'


    So which of us has the problem again? Oh right....... So why do I keep talking to you? Gonna fix that, right here. Bonus question: Do I care what you think? Or what you think of me?




    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Kenrailae wrote:


    Gee if only it were just null that was punished by jump fatigue..... Roll


    they tend to be the only ones i hear complaining about it.

    HS it's irrelevant

    WH it's irrelevant

    LS it's one of the best things to have happened.

    only down side we really got from it in low was with our blops. We can no longer hit the cap booster and GTFO if we landed in a trap but thats not really a bad thing.






    Anyone who has to move caps for any reason complains about it. :/


    Low sec it's fine on a day to day basis, but again, any time you need to move for whatever reason, it's complete and utter rubbish. I agree it shouldn't be made easier to move caps back to jumping all over the galaxy to fight everywhere at once, but there are concessions that need made because this is a game. I also get that that's a super thin line to try and walk, and don't have the best of solutions, though I do have a few ideas, for possible achieving it. I don't see any downside in not being able to immediately GTFO with BLops. That's part of the game. Being busy on a move op day, or your group of people moving to another region for whatever reason, or just you personally changing corps/alliances, it's absurd trying to move around, even in low sec. Needs resolved.

    The Law is a point of View

    The NPE IS a big deal
    Sonya Corvinus
    Grant Village
    #600 - 2016-08-26 18:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
    Kenrailae wrote:
    I've made several. You've chosen to ignore them because 'I'm in a wormhole and it's all fine for me!' What is the point of continuing to talk to you?

    If you'd bothered to read, you'd have deduced it's not about making Eve easier, it's about making it less of a punishment to... IDK, have other things to do outside of Eve? Or play the game in a more nomadic fashion? Or heck, even do something as simple as change corps. But again, you just brush that under the rug as 'working as intended' despite it not being very much not as intended, and 'commit to your space!!!!' even though the sole point of being nomadic is not having a set space..... or moving to a new alliance... well... you're moving to new pace to try to commit to.. but you ignore all that with 'I'm in a WH, it's all good for me!'


    So which of us has the problem again? Oh right....... So why do I keep talking to you? Gonna fix that, right here. Bonus question: Do I care what you think? Or what you think of me?


    As much as it might shock you, I didn't always live in WHs, and I do things outside of them. You keep completely contradicting yourself. "it's not about making EVE easier, its about making it less of a punishment'. Making EVE easier and making travel less of a punishment are literally the same thing.

    Capital ships are supposed to be difficult to move. They are supposed to require support fleets. Now we YOLO them across the universe to gatecamp frigates. There are many ways to move long distances to try new things. Just put the cap away when you do it. Why should you be able to easily use the largest, hardest to fly ships in the game easily while moving long distances without time and effort? If you are so limited in your play time, give caps a break for a bit. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    What kind of people do you fly with who wouldn't put a group together to help you move if you missed a move day? It seems your problem is finding a better corp.

    I apologize for my last line, I assumed I was talking to someone older than 13....