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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Pirokobo
Gate Police
#601 - 2016-08-27 03:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Pirokobo
Kenrailae wrote:
We were mercenary/Nomadic. We moved alot. Often across New Eden for 2-3 weeks at a time to fulfill contracts. Phoebe killed that lifestyle.



Because there is no mechanical difference between your concept of nomadic and PL's concept of nomadic.

You're both moving a huge fleet of capital ships way round the donut, and there's no way of knowing whether you're going to attempt the return trip until you do. it's difficult to contrive a reason why a jump towards where you've recently been is any different from a jump to anywhere else.

Now...

CCP could always make the effects of fatigue substantially worse on supercapitals than regular capitals, and remove it entirely for subcaps.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#602 - 2016-08-27 04:55:43 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:




Anyone who has to move caps for any reason complains about it. :/


Low sec it's fine on a day to day basis, but again, any time you need to move for whatever reason, it's complete and utter rubbish. I agree it shouldn't be made easier to move caps back to jumping all over the galaxy to fight everywhere at once, but there are concessions that need made because this is a game. I also get that that's a super thin line to try and walk, and don't have the best of solutions, though I do have a few ideas, for possible achieving it. I don't see any downside in not being able to immediately GTFO with BLops. That's part of the game. Being busy on a move op day, or your group of people moving to another region for whatever reason, or just you personally changing corps/alliances, it's absurd trying to move around, even in low sec. Needs resolved.


I have had to move caps plenty and since they lowered the cap on fatigue it has been no issue at all. hell in ls you can move from one region to almost any other so long as you are willing to take gates but for some reason people still think capitals need to be moved by cyno only. If you do move cyno only then yeah it's going to suck.


Jump the cap

wait out timer (just in case)

begin moving scouts ahead of the capitals and then go gate to gate till your fatigue runs out

repeat


do this in large groups all at once and you will garner attention but that's up to you
Lugh Crow-Slave
#603 - 2016-08-27 04:57:46 UTC
Pirokobo wrote:

CCP could always make the effects of fatigue substantially worse on supercapitals than regular capitals, and remove it entirely for subcaps.



well no because standard capitals were always a bigger issue than suppers and removing it from sub caps will not help power projection. You would be able to hold space of almost any size and get from one end to the other in no time with a proper jump bridge network
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#604 - 2016-08-27 07:17:15 UTC
There isn't one now. Sure. But there can be. One example would be adding a move mode feature to a capital that it is then locked in for 24 hours, where it gets greatly reduced jump fatigue, but can also receive larger reactivation timers if you so chose, but it's fit, cargo, fleet hangar, drone/fighter bay, and ship bay cannot be moved or adjusted for that window. Only it's fuel bay, which would then prompt a moving of ozone to the fuel category as well, for that instance where a cyno alt needs more ozone, but that's just a thought.


I'm not arguing specific this, that or the other as the only way to fix fatigue. There ARE ways to do it. You can come back with the 'ship cache' argument all you want. Truth is it's a completely moot point as it can already be done with interceptors, minus the jump fatigue, and about 10 extra minutes, which again can be compensated for with longer reactivation timers.



The bottom line is this IS still a game. Jump Fatigue has pushed many people out of capitals and low/null sec all together. I've encountered a few handfuls in Scope chat. Simply, it's too punishing for what it's trying to do.








Cyno's are the best way to move caps due to their horrid align times, extremely slow warp speeds, and instant 'Oh there's a cap on D scan kill it!' Sure, there are some times you can use the gates, and some gates where if you can use it, it'll save you 2 jumps. But as a standard method, cynos are the best way to move caps.


Even if you use web alts, the amount of time you'll spend in warp gives plenty of time for anything to catch you, and given the inability of the majority of caps to fight back against sub caps, that's not practical.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Pirokobo
Gate Police
#605 - 2016-08-27 12:38:43 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
that it is then locked in for 24 hours


Not long enough to stop the behavior CCP is trying to address.

These are fights provoked by reinforcement timers, and often on reinforced nodes. The logistics of setting up those conditions means that people already typically have 24 hour advance notice.

Kenrailae wrote:
Jump Fatigue has pushed many people out of capitals


I have absolutely no problem with this.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#606 - 2016-08-27 12:41:33 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:


The bottom line is this IS still a game. Jump Fatigue has pushed many people out of capitals and low/null sec all together. I've encountered a few handfuls in Scope chat. Simply, it's too punishing for what it's trying to do.





yet in LS we are seeing more and using more capitals not less


the change pushed capitals into a strategic rather than tactical weapon you need to plan out there location and use more carefully
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#607 - 2016-08-27 15:08:39 UTC
Pirokobo wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
that it is then locked in for 24 hours


Not long enough to stop the behavior CCP is trying to address.

These are fights provoked by reinforcement timers, and often on reinforced nodes. The logistics of setting up those conditions means that people already typically have 24 hour advance notice.




So I'm gonna go back to the original Phoebe dev blogs, because you are either forgetting what Pheobe was for or didn't have a strong understanding to start. Back before CCP said 'yeah that's too rough, we'll adjust it to be a little more flexible by capping the number of days you can build fatigue' and before this last fanfest where CCP said it wasn't doing the job the way they wanted it to.... Back when B-R5 and the final 'blue donut' after PL getting smashed and the CFC having effective control of pretty much most of null through actual ownership, friends, or by being able to move their super cap fleet anywhere in the game in 30 minutes, if that.....

Quote:
We are going to allow capital ships to use gates in lowsec/nullsec, and we are aiming to make gate-to-gate travel take less time than jump travel over distances of more than ~20 LY. We've run simulations for capital ships travelling between arbitrary pairs of systems, and settled on the target movement speed of no less than 3 minutes per lightyear for travel over 20 LY. This should allow us to bring about the main change we want to see – less sustained use of jump travel – while still preserving its value for short bursts of movement.




The 'aim' goal was there abouts an hour to travel 20 LY. That's the sort of magic number because that's about where CCP suggested the two travel times should intersect and anything after fatigue should take longer than doing gates.


For reference, from Devoid/Derelik Low sec to Verge Vendor Low sec is there abouts 20 LY, give or take a few depending on the specific system. Using the suggested time frame above, it should take me about an hour to move a capital ship across that distance, either by gate or by jump drive. Perhaps it can be done with gates. Not sure, I'm not gonna go yolo'ing dreads through gates because the whole 'caps are basically useless against subcaps when unsupported' game model CCP uses. So for discussion sake, let's assume that 'no less than three minutes' is interpreted as an average of 5 by jump drive. Even then, it shouldn't take me longer than 2 hours to jump that distance, closer to an hour and a forty minutes. From experience, making the assumption I can almost straight jump at perfect 5 AU jumps and don't have to deviate for appropriate systems, it will take me about 2 hours and 20 minutes, assuming I double jump the last jump, which will slap me with 6 hrs fatigue before I can jump again. If I choose to wait fatigue down each jump, it will take close to 3 hours. That is for a 1 way trip for a single capital ship.



And you think a day lock out isn't long enough? The Nature of allowing caps through gates was to allow them to still travel around, even at a proposed rate of 20 LY an hour, Again depending on the exact gate paths you use. With fatigue this is not possible.

It also very clearly highlights the behavior that was designed to be stopped. Phoebe went out of its way to make it clear that that behavior was the massive movement of caps from all over the galaxy to huge fights to try to restore some regional conflict. Regional conflict can still take place inside of a 2-3 hour window for someone to move. It can still take place inside of a day lock out. It takes less time for subcaps to move that distance. That is still a form of power projection. So, jump bridges were subject to the same restrictions, so as to curb the other method by which groups controlled large portions of the map. Then CCP added interdiction immune interceptors, rebalanced the wormhole connections and changed Sov from structure grinding to sov wanding.

For all those fights with timers and what not you use as an example of why it shouldn't be done, it still is done. Just with interceptors or wormholes, with the only penalty being how long it takes to scan a wormhole chain, or scoot an interceptor along. There is an exceedingly clear imbalance here.

The end result of that imbalance is a very punishing environment. While it is only one of many ways this can be resolved, Locking out caps into a 24 hour cool down timer in a move mode would provide more than enough time to address the problems that prompted phoebe to begin with, especially when coupled with something like double reactivation timers, again, as an example. Don't like 24 hours? Okay, 24 hours can't touch the fit or cargo, etc, and another 24 where you can remove the cargo, and ships but can't use the cap? Any of a number of ways out there really, but Fatigue needs adjusted to accommodate this, you know, being a game. Also, most cap pilots I know have more than 1 capital. So take that 3 hour trip and multiply it for each one, plus any time an individual may have things outside of eve where they can't just sit there for 3 hours and wait on a timer..... It does the job of stopping the single fleet for the entire map, but it also becomes too much of a punishment for moving anywhere.






Quote:
yet in LS we are seeing more and using more capitals not less


the change pushed capitals into a strategic rather than tactical weapon you need to plan out there location and use more carefully



What evidence do you have to support this? I can very clearly remember the massive cap swarms that would come from every corner of the map if a super got caught anywhere..... Asakai?


Or Black Legion's Dread bomb being wherever and whenever..... because all they had to do was light 10 cyno's and they were there?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Lugh Crow-Slave
#608 - 2016-08-27 17:12:25 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:


Quote:
yet in LS we are seeing more and using more capitals not less


the change pushed capitals into a strategic rather than tactical weapon you need to plan out there location and use more carefully



What evidence do you have to support this? I can very clearly remember the massive cap swarms that would come from every corner of the map if a super got caught anywhere..... Asakai?


Or Black Legion's Dread bomb being wherever and whenever..... because all they had to do was light 10 cyno's and they were there?



exactly and now that they cant do that all the smaller LS groups are now able to take out there caps w/o PL dropping on them b4 their cyno even expires

they may not be seen in the same numbers but they are seen in a much higher frequency and they are dying at a greater frequency

Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#609 - 2016-08-27 22:14:08 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:


Quote:
yet in LS we are seeing more and using more capitals not less


the change pushed capitals into a strategic rather than tactical weapon you need to plan out there location and use more carefully



What evidence do you have to support this? I can very clearly remember the massive cap swarms that would come from every corner of the map if a super got caught anywhere..... Asakai?


Or Black Legion's Dread bomb being wherever and whenever..... because all they had to do was light 10 cyno's and they were there?



exactly and now that they cant do that all the smaller LS groups are now able to take out there caps w/o PL dropping on them b4 their cyno even expires

they may not be seen in the same numbers but they are seen in a much higher frequency and they are dying at a greater frequency





And this can still be accomplished by adjusting jump fatigue to allow for things like moving. Using the working discussion example again, locking a cap in a theoretical 24 hour 'move mode' may still allow a pilot to get around quickly, but no more quickly than taking an interceptor, and assuming that move mode locked the bays for the duration of the move mode, would provide no greater advantage than an interceptor either. Either way, the pilot would have to have prestaged other ships to be able to use them. Arguably there would be even less advantage in using a 'move mode' cap as it would be combat useless and expensive where an interceptor can buzz around do stuff. Re-iterating again, that is not the only way to resolve the issue, it's just one working example throughout these last few posts.


It's not so much that we're seeing more capital usage, it's that we're seeing more smaller scale cap usage. This is good and well and no one is trying to change that to my knowledge. I and I'm sure others(though I can't speak for them) would just like for it to not be a disciplinary sentence when I do need to move, whether that's again for changing corps or corp/alliance moving to a new region or whatever.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Lugh Crow-Slave
#610 - 2016-08-27 23:55:48 UTC
Except the move mode makes it a hell of a lot easier and less tediouse to set up the caps in the first place. If you want to use a capital there should be some level of commitment to where you put them you should not just be able to pack them up and move them willy nilly.
Pirokobo
Gate Police
#611 - 2016-08-28 04:33:30 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
So I'm gonna go back to the original Phoebe dev blogs, because you are either forgetting what Pheobe was for or didn't have a strong understanding to start.


I was playing KSP that year, and then WoWS because I got fed up with every alphafleet action hinging on "will this end in supercap escalation?".

I came back because it seems CCP has done a pretty good job of punching supercaps in the balls.

As long as they're on the ground, I say keep kicking.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#612 - 2016-08-28 05:09:33 UTC
Pirokobo wrote:
[quote=Kenrailae]
As long as they're on the ground, I say keep kicking.



I wouldn't go that far they do have a place in eve but they need to stay in that place and not be the be all end all like they had been


the recent cap balance did great for everything other than carriers and triage who were stripped and given a wet cloth to cover with.

in terms of triage they nerffed the traiage mode itself and that was never the issue it was the out of triage spider tanking that was a problem (in fairness at least they fixed that too) as for carriers they tried to give it a new role but at the same time gave dreads HAW making the carriers niche very very small
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#613 - 2016-08-28 16:05:11 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Except the move mode makes it a hell of a lot easier and less tediouse to set up the caps in the first place. If you want to use a capital there should be some level of commitment to where you put them you should not just be able to pack them up and move them willy nilly.



Don't start getting hung up on one particular way of dealing with the issue. I've repeated myself over and again that it's just one way to deal with it, but it's not the only way, and it's not even the way I think is best, just the one I'm using for discussion sake.



There is and still will be a level of commitment to where you put caps. Far more than where you can throw a T3 fleet these days. Heck half the time you don't even need to look for your own wormhole chain, it's already plotted out on the pile of wormhole trackers floating around out there.



And that's the point you seem to keep overlooking. It's proportionally WAY too much of a pain the ass to do anything with caps outside of that little bubble of space they're in. 25 minutes and a bit of Wh digging you can move a fleet of subcaps across the map. Done it. Or fly a bunch of interceptors to some other cache of ships elsewhere. Done it. Heck, if you play your jump clones right, you can do it in a minute. Also done it. Move a capital to a different part of low sec? 2 hours. At best. With another pile of fatigue you have to wait off before doing anything with it. This is still a game. It shouldn't be so proportionally a pain to do something like move. As I said earlier, if we plugged into the matrix and lived in Eve, sure. But that's not the case.


Something like a move timer does force a measure of commitment because you then can't use any of that stuff for 24-48 hours. You'd have to move it before hand, keep it there, and then move it back, prompting another measure of commitment waiting on another timer to cool down. Or weighted cyno's. Or increasing reactivation timers for less accumulated fatigue. Or whatever of the mass of methods people have put forward to deal with the issue. Most of these STILL force far more commitment than is required to throw around a fleet of T3's and interceptors.


The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#614 - 2016-08-29 08:00:36 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

the change pushed capitals into a strategic rather than tactical weapon you need to plan out there location and use more carefully



I'm not entirely sure that is as accurate as you think. Supers, certainly, but normal caps?

Well I certainly and many of my mates have simply bought them where we needed them and left them when we moved. The result? Literal capital caches scattered over space. It's not even something which was planned, at least not by me. I just looked at the logistics of moving it and said "sack that, I'll just keep it here for a rainy day".

I don't think this is that common yet, but it'll become more commonplace as time wears on.

tl;dr: People can and will route around the problem by throwing isk at it.
Lord Damo Boirelle
Underdogs Corp
#615 - 2016-08-29 16:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Damo Boirelle
I haven't played the game since jump fatigue was introduced, I would like to come back to the game but the thought of a full day just to move all my crap back out too null is painfull, why the wait really? we have to wait for everything as it is.

Jump fatigue took away a lot of fun from the game aswell, a lot of the pvp fleets stopped, fun friday night roams, and moving capitals is just painfull now, why stuff the game? It was fine.
I could go more into it but going to see if any of the old people that i used to roam with are online... hang on... no and no they haven't logged on for ages.......
The Receptionist
Novartis Corporation.
#616 - 2016-08-29 18:30:22 UTC
Lord Damo Boirelle wrote:
It was fine.


lol.

But yeah fatigue as it is currently is ****.
Dravar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#617 - 2016-08-31 07:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dravar
Supercapital movement should be completely nerfed into oblivion, only being able to use supercapitals for defense, and for offense only with a lot of preparation in moving the supercaps in place, and other offensive capitals movement should be nerfed to a lesser degree.

The playstyle of the likes of PL and NC. and similar organizations of crushing the little guy whenever they stick their heads out and preventing them from doing anything without getting dropped by an overwhelming number of supercaps, even in the same region beyond a few jumps, should be completely destroyed because it is only fun for a tiny minority of players and it stifles change and discourages new powers from rising.

But who am I kidding. They are just going to make it easier for them again to do this, because of a tiny vocal minority.
Lord Damo Boirelle
Underdogs Corp
#618 - 2016-08-31 14:01:53 UTC
Dravar wrote:
Supercapital movement should be completely nerfed into oblivion, only being able to use supercapitals for defense, and for offense only with a lot of preparation in moving the supercaps in place, and other offensive capitals movement should be nerfed to a lesser degree.

The playstyle of the likes of PL and NC. and similar organizations of crushing the little guy whenever they stick their heads out and preventing them from doing anything without getting dropped by an overwhelming number of supercaps, even in the same region beyond a few jumps, should be completely destroyed because it is only fun for a tiny minority of players and it stifles change and discourages new powers from rising.

But who am I kidding. They are just going to make it easier for them again to do this, because of a tiny vocal minority.


Someones been butthurt lol... This is what eve is, ruthless, hot drops, massive fleets and sov warfare, use what ever powers you have to con
Lugh Crow-Slave
#619 - 2016-09-02 13:11:34 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

the change pushed capitals into a strategic rather than tactical weapon you need to plan out there location and use more carefully



I'm not entirely sure that is as accurate as you think. Supers, certainly, but normal caps?

Well I certainly and many of my mates have simply bought them where we needed them and left them when we moved. The result? Literal capital caches scattered over space. It's not even something which was planned, at least not by me. I just looked at the logistics of moving it and said "sack that, I'll just keep it here for a rainy day".

I don't think this is that common yet, but it'll become more commonplace as time wears on.

tl;dr: People can and will route around the problem by throwing isk at it.


This is exactly why fatigue is needed on all sips and yes this started to become common when fatigue was announced (setting up capital cashes)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#620 - 2016-09-03 06:36:08 UTC
Lord Damo Boirelle wrote:
Dravar wrote:
Supercapital movement should be completely nerfed into oblivion, only being able to use supercapitals for defense, and for offense only with a lot of preparation in moving the supercaps in place, and other offensive capitals movement should be nerfed to a lesser degree.

The playstyle of the likes of PL and NC. and similar organizations of crushing the little guy whenever they stick their heads out and preventing them from doing anything without getting dropped by an overwhelming number of supercaps, even in the same region beyond a few jumps, should be completely destroyed because it is only fun for a tiny minority of players and it stifles change and discourages new powers from rising.

But who am I kidding. They are just going to make it easier for them again to do this, because of a tiny vocal minority.


Someones been butthurt lol... This is what eve is, ruthless, hot drops, massive fleets and sov warfare, use what ever powers you have to con

Seriously.

Fixed your opening phrase..
This is what Eve is "now".

Ruthless, lol, yep using super / cap fleets vs groups who have no way of competing with or resisting such a force could be called ruthless - There are other words that fit better, like risk averse cowards. (the only half decent capital/super fight recently was still 2 vs 1 - no real odds on who would win there)
What would be ruthless - Seeing the super heavy groups fight each other. That will never happen, they know the risks.

Massive fleets and sov warfare - Your kidding. Sov is a little better than orbiting FW buttons and generally entails less risk. A small gang spread out through a constellation can easily flip sov. If it is at all contested, it's usually with frigates and T3D's, no need for massive fleets - Devs designed it specifically this way. Fozziesov spelled the death of large fleets contesting sov and it has gone downhill since.

Use whatever powers you have - Yep nothing better than turning Eve into a complete gank fest.

Butthurt? Reality is, capital warfare in Eve is terribly broken - Sov warfare is worse (and that's saying something)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.