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Drifter Incursions

Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#61 - 2015-08-12 15:40:57 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
but Sansha incursions only in lowsec and nullsec.

When did this change happen?
It hasn't been announced but the writing is on the wall for the Sansha incurions in highsec. These Drifter ones are significantly harder and feature guaranteed ship loss so no one will run them if both co-exist. They will either have to pay significantly more than the Sansha incursions, which isn't going to happen as CCP thinks incursions already pay too much, or the Sansha ones will be removed from highsec/have their payouts slashed dramatically.

I think politically it would be easier for CCP to just move the Sansha ones to low and null, and make the Drifters highsec only so the whining from incursions runners can be countered with "but we replaced it with exciting new PvE like you have been asking for!".

It's a good solution. CCP can increase risk on highsec incursion runners with a mechanism they can tune as players figure the Drifters out to keep things challenging and less easy-mode farmable as the Sansha ones have been for many years now.
Oxide Ammar
#62 - 2015-08-12 16:26:47 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
but Sansha incursions only in lowsec and nullsec.

When did this change happen?
It hasn't been announced but the writing is on the wall for the Sansha incurions in highsec. These Drifter ones are significantly harder and feature guaranteed ship loss so no one will run them if both co-exist. They will either have to pay significantly more than the Sansha incursions, which isn't going to happen as CCP thinks incursions already pay too much, or the Sansha ones will be removed from highsec/have their payouts slashed dramatically.

I think politically it would be easier for CCP to just move the Sansha ones to low and null, and make the Drifters highsec only so the whining from incursions runners can be countered with "but we replaced it with exciting new PvE like you have been asking for!".

It's a good solution. CCP can increase risk on highsec incursion runners with a mechanism they can tune as players figure the Drifters out to keep things challenging and less easy-mode farmable as the Sansha ones have been for many years now.


Did you read the **** you just posted ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#63 - 2015-08-12 16:35:38 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
but Sansha incursions only in lowsec and nullsec.

When did this change happen?
It hasn't been announced but the writing is on the wall for the Sansha incurions in highsec. These Drifter ones are significantly harder and feature guaranteed ship loss so no one will run them if both co-exist. They will either have to pay significantly more than the Sansha incursions, which isn't going to happen as CCP thinks incursions already pay too much, or the Sansha ones will be removed from highsec/have their payouts slashed dramatically.

I think politically it would be easier for CCP to just move the Sansha ones to low and null, and make the Drifters highsec only so the whining from incursions runners can be countered with "but we replaced it with exciting new PvE like you have been asking for!".

It's a good solution. CCP can increase risk on highsec incursion runners with a mechanism they can tune as players figure the Drifters out to keep things challenging and less easy-mode farmable as the Sansha ones have been for many years now.


Did you read the **** you just posted ?

Of course, I wrote it. What is your point?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#64 - 2015-08-12 18:21:11 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So how do Drifter Incursions work then? Teams wait for the token player to show up who will unwittingly take the DD? "Looks like we're going to need another Timmy..."




I wonder if they'll call it the "Kenny".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#65 - 2015-08-13 00:09:06 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Bunch of drivel

You know a Null Incursion is over 200% more profitable than a high-sec incursion now right? And that's assuming that a 50% larger fleet can't run the incursion sites even faster than a High Incursion fleet.
There is no writing on the wall for incursions in High Sec, not unless CCP wants to make it obvious that this is no longer a sandbox, and that Null Sec is the new theme park end game space.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#66 - 2015-08-13 06:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Bunch of drivel

You know a Null Incursion is over 200% more profitable than a high-sec incursion now right? And that's assuming that a 50% larger fleet can't run the incursion sites even faster than a High Incursion fleet.
There is no writing on the wall for incursions in High Sec, not unless CCP wants to make it obvious that this is no longer a sandbox, and that Null Sec is the new theme park end game space.

Why do incursion runners get so defensive over the topic of how much they make? Deep down, they must know that something about the risk vs. reward is out of whack.

Look, CCP has already said they think incursion income is too high (2014 CSM Minutes, pg. 125). Therefore, they are very unlikely to raise incursion income significantly overall. Yet, how will they get players to run this new, more dangerous content that has not been min/maxed and features guaranteed ship loss via this Doomsday?

Their only option is to re-balance the incursion rewards so that the new content pays much more than the old content. Therefore, CCP will rebalance the payouts so the Drifter incursions provide income similar (or perhaps a little higher to cover ship losses) to the current incursions, and the current Sansha ones will either take a massive hit in income or be removed completely from highsec.

There really is no other option if they want players to run the new content. And since they just spent significant development hours making this content, they will want players to run the new content.

It will be fine though. CCP is not taking your Golden Goose away. The are just replacing it with one that will bite you occasionally. There will be a period of adjustment while players figure out the content, and they will have to factor in loosing a ship from time-to-time in their profit calculations, but highsec end-game PvE content will live on.

Incursions won't be nearly as farmable, especially if CCP keep changing the Drifters to adapt to player tactics as they have so far, but they will again be the moderately challenging PvE group content they were designed to be, instead of the simple, watch-Netflix-while-I-farm-for-a-PLEX content they have been for the last few years.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#67 - 2015-08-13 06:51:50 UTC
If you think HQ fleets are simple, go into an incursion, recruit 40 people from the public incursion channel, run HQ sites. Start your timer at the second you start trying to form a fleet. Stop it at the end of the last site. Also include the time to fly from whereever you are right now to the incursion system.
Then calculate your actual income at the end of a week.

The fact the Incursion communities make it look easy is because they have spent literally years putting together a well oiled machine and training people in all aspects of incursions, and what to do when ganks occur, how to avoid gankers while moving, and how to be an efficient fleet member.

TLDR: Incursions are not easy, Incursion communities are just good.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2015-08-13 07:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If you think HQ fleets are simple, go into an incursion, recruit 40 people from the public incursion channel, run HQ sites. Start your timer at the second you start trying to form a fleet. Stop it at the end of the last site. Also include the time to fly from whereever you are right now to the incursion system.
Then calculate your actual income at the end of a week.

The fact the Incursion communities make it look easy is because they have spent literally years putting together a well oiled machine and training people in all aspects of incursions, and what to do when ganks occur, how to avoid gankers while moving, and how to be an efficient fleet member.

TLDR: Incursions are not easy, Incursion communities are just good.

Oh man you should of seen the stupid things we tried in the early days LOL.

It'll take days at most before drifters are farmed in a similar manner.


What really cracks me up is Black Pedro though. People already farm sleeper sites and such while watching netflix.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#69 - 2015-08-13 07:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
TLDR: Incursions are not easy, Incursion communities are just good.

Hey man, tell yourself whatever narrative you need to keep logging in.

Perhaps the incursion community can tell themselves that they are so good, that they forced CCP to make the content harder? It's true in a sense. Whatever you need to protect your egos is fine with me.

Once the Sansha incursions have been replaced by the Drifter ones you will get your chance to show who's really good and actually enjoys running the content, and who is just there to farm using strategies pioneered by others. I would think you would be happy to hear the news that CCP is revamping your main content and giving you a new challenge.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#70 - 2015-08-13 07:23:05 UTC
if thats the aim of drifter incursions it sounds good and i can see the use of 5bil machs switched for t2/meta optimised fits Pirate

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Black Pedro
Mine.
#71 - 2015-08-13 07:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Lan Wang wrote:
if thats the aim of drifter incursions it sounds good and i can see the use of 5bil machs switched for t2/meta optimised fits Pirate

Yup. They will be optimized and people will make ISK doing them but at least ships will be destroyed. Since there will actually be risk that your ship will blow up, the fact that you can't use a max-pimp boat because of the doomsday will mean the ISK/h will be kept a little more under control.

And if CCP decides the incursion runners are getting "too good", they can dial up the Drifters like they have been doing since they were introduced.

It's a much better system than the static, and farmable Sansha we have had for too long. I'm glad CCP has finally gotten around to cranking the risk up a bit in highsec after doing it everywhere else.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2015-08-13 07:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Black Pedro wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
TLDR: Incursions are not easy, Incursion communities are just good.

Hey man, tell yourself whatever narrative you need to keep logging in.

Perhaps the incursion community can tell themselves that they are so good, that they forced CCP to make the content harder? It's true in a sense. Whatever you need to protect your egos is fine with me.

Once the Sansha incursions have been replaced by the Drifter ones you will get your chance to show who's really good and actually enjoys running the content, and who is just there to farm using strategies pioneered by others. I would think you would be happy to hear the news that CCP is revamping your main content and giving you a new challenge.

It won't show anything as by the end of the first day people will have it figured out and be farming it.

Even if CCP changed the setup on a near daily basis it'll be figured out very quickly and well farmed before the day is over.

If it's not farmable than few people will run it and CCP will invest time/effort/money on new content that no one runs.


I'm not sure why you have such a problem with incursions being farmed but not a variety of other sites/locations being farmed.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2015-08-13 08:04:14 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
You know a Null Incursion is over 200% more profitable than a high-sec incursion now right?


Kinete Jenius wrote:
What really cracks me up is Black Pedro though. People already farm sleeper sites and such while watching netflix.


That is because you guys don't get into your ships to do it less profitable for them and require them to pay attention to what's going on, I suppose. I mean, you are doing things with ISK you make anyway, right?

Kinete Jenius wrote:
It won't show anything as by the end of the first day people will have it figured out and be farming it.

Even if CCP changed the setup on a near daily basis it'll be figured out very quickly and well farmed before the day is over.

If it's not farmable than few people will run it and CCP will invest time/effort/money on new content that no one runs.


I'm not sure why you have such a problem with incursions being farmed but not a variety of other sites/locations being farmed.

I don't think farmability is the problem.
Point is not that CCP should make it impossible to farm but that they will be able to adjust sites as they see fit every time they think it's due without upsetting community too much since the latter are already conditioned to take looses and adapt by very nature of sites. That said, basic mech should remain consistent IMO otherwise players will feel like being cheated and from my experience it's absolutely not fun to play with video game equivalent of "rocks fall, everybody dies" game master.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#74 - 2015-08-13 08:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Even if CCP changed the setup on a near daily basis it'll be figured out very quickly and well farmed before the day is over.


I'm not sure why you have such a problem with incursions being farmed but not a variety of other sites/locations being farmed.

Incursions pay way too much for the little amount for risk and effort they currently requires. That was not always the case, but they have been beaten through optimization. Most, but not all people, run them to simply to make ISK and they are far too easy at that now. Yes, that is because the Incursion community has been good at min/maxing the system, but still they were never intended to be farmed at no risk but rather were suppose to be somewhat challenging group PvE content.

Incursions are especially insidious as a farmable income source as they are risk-free. There is no practical player-driven counter and they provide no additional content to the sandbox. At least someone farming wormhole escalations or ratting in nullsec is risking ships that can serve as targets for other players. Further that risk-free nature attracts players from other spaces who are just looking to farm something for an income depleting the population there.

The new Drifter incursions will be more difficult, and the DD builds some real risk into them. We'll see how CCP tunes them, but I can tell you that the rationale for removing the Sansha incursions and replacing them with Drifters is to increase the risk on highsec players (primarily through the new AI and the Doomsday). That does not mean that incursions will not be lucrative. It will just mean that players will lose more ships (stimulating the economy) and will have to pay more attention to these adaptable NPCs.

Fine by me. I have no problem with a group PvE activity in highsec. I just have a problem with one that has little risk and difficulty for the top-tier income like the current ones.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#75 - 2015-08-13 08:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
TLDR: Incursions are not easy, Incursion communities are just good.

Hey man, tell yourself whatever narrative you need to keep logging in.

Perhaps the incursion community can tell themselves that they are so good, that they forced CCP to make the content harder? It's true in a sense. Whatever you need to protect your egos is fine with me.

Once the Sansha incursions have been replaced by the Drifter ones you will get your chance to show who's really good and actually enjoys running the content, and who is just there to farm using strategies pioneered by others. I would think you would be happy to hear the news that CCP is revamping your main content and giving you a new challenge.

It won't show anything as by the end of the first day people will have it figured out and be farming it.

Even if CCP changed the setup on a near daily basis it'll be figured out very quickly and well farmed before the day is over.

If it's not farmable than few people will run it and CCP will invest time/effort/money on new content that no one runs.


I'm not sure why you have such a problem with incursions being farmed but not a variety of other sites/locations being farmed.


but its more interesting content right? thats what all highsec wants and keep complaining about? interesting and harder pve, farming something isnt hard, but at the end of the day if you dont run them then thats your issue, ccp provided you with what you asked for but you choose not to run them because they are too hard.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Black Pedro
Mine.
#76 - 2015-08-13 08:42:50 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:

It won't show anything as by the end of the first day people will have it figured out and be farming it.

Even if CCP changed the setup on a near daily basis it'll be figured out very quickly and well farmed before the day is over.

If it's not farmable than few people will run it and CCP will invest time/effort/money on new content that no one runs.


I'm not sure why you have such a problem with incursions being farmed but not a variety of other sites/locations being farmed.


but its more interesting content right? thats what all highsec wants and keep complaining about? interesting and harder pve, farming something isnt hard, but at the end of the day if you dont run them then thats your issue, ccp provided you with what you asked for but you choose not to run them because they are too hard.

Indeed. Even if people are "farming" by the end of the day at least someone actually had to play the game to figure out the best strategy.

That is in contrast to the current situation where you read a guide once that someone else wrote years ago and repeat for months on end at no risk and with no challenge.

Highsec incursions are about about to get more interesting, dynamic and harder. If players choose not to run them because they are not farmable, it kinda says something about the content in the first place. If you want to farm, at least go to a space where you have to put something on the line.

Time to adapt incursion runners and actually play the game. All those previous optimizations are about to be thrown out the window.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-08-13 09:00:38 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Even if CCP changed the setup on a near daily basis it'll be figured out very quickly and well farmed before the day is over.


I'm not sure why you have such a problem with incursions being farmed but not a variety of other sites/locations being farmed.

Incursions pay way too much for the little amount for risk and effort they currently requires. That was not always the case, but they have been beaten through optimization. Most, but not all people, run them to simply to make ISK and they are far too easy at that now. Yes, that is because the Incursion community has been good at min/maxing the system, but still they were never intended to be farmed at no risk but rather were suppose to be somewhat challenging group PvE content.

Incursions are especially insidious as a farmable income source as they are risk-free. There is no practical player-driven counter and they provide no additional content to the sandbox. At least someone farming wormhole escalations or ratting in nullsec is risking ships that can serve as targets for other players. Further that risk-free nature attracts players from other spaces who are just looking to farm something for an income depleting the population there.

The new Drifter incursions will be more difficult, and the DD builds some real risk into them. We'll see how CCP tunes them, but I can tell you that the rational for removing the Sansha incursions and replacing them with Drifters is to increase the risk on highsec players (primarily through the new AI and the Doomsday). That does not mean that incursions will not be lucrative. It will just mean that players will lose more ships (stimulating the economy) and will have to pay more attention to these adaptable NPCs.

Fine by me. I have no problem with a group PvE activity in highsec. I just have a problem with one that has little risk and difficulty for the top-tier income like the current ones.

I can make more isk per account per hour doing other activities. I just do incursions because they amuse me currently.

You can at any point provide risk for incursion runners. You refuse to HTFU and take on that burden instead demanding that CCP does the work for you.


Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#78 - 2015-08-13 09:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
here we go again...everyone knows fighting 5bil battleship fleets with ample logi isnt really going to happen when concord are watching your back, hense why you dont do them in null and lowsec because you would get smashed and you know it.

what other activities in highsec can you make more isk per account with same risks again?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Black Pedro
Mine.
#79 - 2015-08-13 09:18:45 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:
I can make more isk per account per hour doing other activities. I just do incursions because they amuse me currently.

You can at any point provide risk for incursion runners. You refuse to HTFU and take on that burden instead demanding that CCP does the work for you.

I cannot. It is not possible for one or a couple players to gank an active incursion group because of the attentive logi. The free protection of highsec scales quite well with numbers so incursion runners are pretty much invincible. I would need several times more players than the incursion group to do it and I do not have the resources.

I had hoped that one day I would be proven wrong and someone would stop the farmers (even the Goons tried but failed), but I won't get the chance as it seems now CCP has killed the incursion farms for us. Can't say I am going to complain though.

I don't see why you are so defensive. If you enjoy the current incursions, I am sure the challenge of the new ones will "amuse" you as well. And if they prove too hard for you, you can just go back to your "other activities" that make you more ISK.

Oxide Ammar
#80 - 2015-08-13 10:05:53 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
here we go again...everyone knows fighting 5bil battleship fleets with ample logi isnt really going to happen when concord are watching your back, hense why you dont do them in null and lowsec because you would get smashed and you know it.

what other activities in highsec can you make more isk per account with same risks again?


Provide me with kill report happened recently of low sec/null sec fleet got totally wiped because of another fleet managed to kill them.

The 5 bill incursion pirate BS is about efficiency not ******* show off, you can work your math to figure out the difference between scrub T1 BS with T2 fit vs Vindi with blue fit. If you can't comprehend what I'm say then keep babbling about risk vs reward stereo typing. Please tell us more about the risk vs. reward in nullsec for the carrier ratters who are aligned to POS somewhere and waiting for neut to enter system and warp away.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.