EVE General Discussion

Right...from another system several gates away.

Whatever.

BTW, I think the OP is being a bit daft and doesn't really know the difference between risk aversion, loss aversion, and that there is far, far more to it than simply ISK.

And for the record I don't care if people are risk seeking, neutral, or averse...or even loss averse. This is a sandbox game and it can accommodate all types.

Guess, it shows what you know.

The solution is obvious...go back and re-read your first paragraph. If grinding is making people risk averse, then remove the grinding.

There problem solved.

If you don't like that solution, maybe you should learn to live with people being, to varying degrees, risk averse.

What evidence? The ability of a newbie to join a blob does not invalidate the SP gap. It's basically telling someone they have to be an f1 monkey to participate. And if that mythical lone titan has support on grid you can be damn sure SP will play a role in how long that hero ceptor stays up, since it will be defining his EHP, point range, speed, maneuverability, cap drain rate, local reps if he has them...do I really need to go on? The last time I flew a ceptor I definitely noticed not having interceptors V as it cut into my point range pretty dramatically.

And the dozen other things that a newbro can do that is useful to both them and the corp they are flying with, or even solo if they choose to go that rout.

Like I've said before. I have focused on being in a WH for a long bit of my time playing EVE, and WH space is probbly one of the places in all of EVE that the skills that a pilot has are the most looked at when joining the community, whether that is just as a explorer or as apart of a high class cap-warfare PVP fleet. The newbro can be just as important as that multi-million SP toon as long as they have the core skills that only take a few weeks (at most) to train.


I have had a pilot with 10s of millions SP more than me say that they couldn't help with a fight because their last ship in the WH was blown up the last fight because they rushed into flying caps (amarr focus in this case) and no one had anything they could use in the mean time.

Where at the same time I have seen people with a lot less SP than me be able to be flexible in the training plan they have and master a few different ships of different sizes across all the races and they could pick up almost any ship someone could toss them if needed to help out with the fight. (tho they were limited to flying just frigs through cruiser)


At the end of the day both of these situations don't really mean a lot when it comes to the discussion of if a "SP wall" exist because all they show is the difference in the attitude of training that each pilot showed (cap warfare+racial perfection VS generalization) and either one is a viable play style in this game. And the attitude and what someone wants to train for is more showing of what that pilot is capable of than the current SP they have.

lol people still talking.
Now with even more hating carebears.

So ask me about it. I'll lay it out for you.

First of all, I do not propose any changes to skill mechanics or criticize it. Once I'll go over SP wall, it'll work for me just as well as it did for everyone over it now, provided I can grow SP faster than the wall does.

I do not say being vet should not come with advantage.

I do say that SP difference is crucial and can be found at the root of every factor named so far as being decisive in eve combat PvP. This, however, is not directly on topic, just a side point.

Answering your on-topic question: Yes, with clarification.

As clarification, I want to point out that participation in eve combat PvP without being over SP wall or using SP wall leaping mechanic is automatic defeat, since your every move can be countered with SP advantage (if enemy didn't do that, it's his self-destruction on basis of not using his SP, and not your victory). So it's no longer risk, it's certainty. It has nothing to do with being risk-averse (there is no gamble to take), but rather being loss-averse - even if you lose nothing, you still lose, and after a few losses you're going to realize you will keep losing for a very long time, at which point quitting is not a wrong decision strategically, staying is the wrong one on the other hand, if your goal is combat PvP success.

So, in short, the problem is not losing, the problem is total lack of winning. Losing less value in your endless losing spree does not solve the issue, it's not even treating the symptom.

On topic of what needs to be done to change that, I don't see a single solution which can fit everyone.
We can remove the SP wall altogether by making more ships like Gnosis, or we can bring newbies over SP wall by giving them SP in a multitude of possible ways - would be completely unfair to people who spent their subscription money learning the skills, will cause an incredible spike of bittervetismia, but will remove the core reason of loss aversion by introducing accessible chance to win. SP is by far strongest force multiplier, others are way less in power, and can be mitigated in many ways, unlike SP.
Other ways may be some improvements to role warfare, creating roles unappealing to high SP players (like it were with clone grades, where it was not practical to field a ship cheaper than your clone is, and please don't take it as defense to this mechanics, it was a pretty horrible way to achieve that goal, and I'm sure it weren't put there to do that either), which newbros can fill without being easily replaceable by a member of N+1 high SP fleet. This, however, may be seen as a form of "SP penalty" and filled by low SP alts of high SP players anyway.
Think what will make you go solo on your single-digit mil SP alt instead of your over-the-SP-wall main - this is where possible solutions dwell. Right now the answer is "haha nothing", and that is the reason why people won't undock in PvP ships, so whatever the solution is, it should, directly or indirectly, trigger that pressure pad of choosing your low alt instead of high main for some reason. I have not found the best one yet, but at least there's my lead, let's hope it'll help CCP find the good one.

Basil, it's ok to be bad at EVE PVP, really.

You don't need to post walls of text to feel better. Come on, let it go, admit you have no idea of what you're sperging about.


Ships, mods and the SP to fly/fit them are just tools. Having access to more of them is certainly an advantage, but how effectively you use these tools is entirely up to your skill, creativity and capability to gather and engage your internet friends to help you.

EVE has enough complexity and human factor built-in that SP is the main deciding factor of PVP only in your forum posts.


I hope you do realize this and that you're just (rather successfully) trolling, otherwise you're missing out on 90% of the entertainment of this game's PVP.

Anyone reading beyond this ...
... not seeing in what kind of world the poster lives in ...
... and still responding to him ...
... should slap himself and wake up.


There is no way of educating someone like that.

Anything you say only serves yourself.
There is no way of making you aware of mistakes,
no matter what,
because you dismiss anything based on the idea that You simply *must* be right.

Also do you not understand that logic always works.
Just because it makes sense, though, doesn't mean it's right.

Ignoring lack of information and dismissing what others say,
which would add to your process of reasoning ... is what you do.

Your superiority complex is so gigantic, I actually feel sad for you.

Thus there is no way of educating you.

You should be avoided ...
... but instead people reply to you ...
... making your issue just worse every single time.

No, you're not.

What you do is trying to make others aware of your imaginary fact of being right.

No where am I saying "I'm leet" either. You are imagining that.
It is not written anywhere.

All I am doing is trying to tell others that you are incapable of being reasonable
outside of that limited scope you have, which you are completely unable to widen.

You feel attacked all the time, because it's the easier way to deal with what people are telling you.

You keep unknowingly making things up, which were never said or meant,
just because it helps you keeping your mental status quo.

Hey, at least I've tried.
I just wished other people wouldn't make your issue worse.