These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Intaki Liberation
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#61 - 2015-03-26 17:13:46 UTC
Kel hound wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it.

Dailar Toralen wrote:
As previously stated I never said anything of slavery in the typical sense. However, I do believe the Intaki are being oppressed.


The Federation does what exactly Toralen? Because from the first quote it reads as though you are accusing the Federation of holding slaves. If that is not what you were implying then perhaps you would like to rephrase yourself for the clarity of those listening?




As others like Bataav and Liam have already pointed out, the plight of the Intaki people is a complicated issue within the Federation. I understand that our ideals and political structure must seem strange and alien to someone from the State, but living in a democracy as we do means that at the end of the day the Intaki people are the masters of their own destiny. It also means that they are open to criticism from other elements of gallentean society. That is part of the price paid for respecting freedom of speech.
It is not a perfect system by any means but it is the system we the people believe in. The protean nature of democracy allows us to participate in, and change the aspects we deem in need of fixing. If your spaceship is damaged you do not throw away the entire ship because it does not work, you fix it. So it is with the Federation.

Can the Federation do more for Intaki? Yes, absolutely. Should it? Yes, absolutely, if that is what the Intaki want.
The inclusion of the Intaki in the militia warzone complicates these matters. The question of Intaki independence, either as its own independent state or a formal bastion within the Federation, cannot be reasonably, and honestly pursued while the Caldari/Gallente militia war continues.
If the Intaki are to be free then their home and neighboring systems need to be removed from the warzone, and their security rating formally raised to be in compliance with the rest of Federal systems. Anything less simply turns the Intaki into another political pawn to be moved and bartered with by State and Federal politicians and diplomats.


I agree with the fact that they need to be removed from the warzones. Also, with your Spaceship analogy, I have a true version for the Federation. Okay, for sake we'll put the Intaki as the pilot who's ship is damaged and the Federation as the Pilot's Corporation. You cannot fix the ship if the Corporation is withholding all the tools. Also, the reason the Intaki requested a low security status is because they did not want the Federation even more involved and controlling of their affairs. They are nearly Nullsec, and they still have to deal with Federation pressure.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-03-26 18:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
Dailar Toralen wrote:

I agree with the fact that they need to be removed from the warzones. Also, with your Spaceship analogy, I have a true version for the Federation. Okay, for sake we'll put the Intaki as the pilot who's ship is damaged and the Federation as the Pilot's Corporation. You cannot fix the ship if the Corporation is withholding all the tools. Also, the reason the Intaki requested a low security status is because they did not want the Federation even more involved and controlling of their affairs. They are nearly Nullsec, and they still have to deal with Federation pressure.


I'm sorry monsieur but your assertions are simply false.

To the point of your "analogy," the Intaki people are not being denied any "tools" to fix their own state, furthermore if a people are seeking independence then they must be independent and self-sufficient by necessity. Since the Intaki people are not wanting for wisdom, it would seem they believe themselves fully capable of being self-sufficient and I would agree they are.

The Federation is, quite literally, bound by more than one charter regarding its involvement in the Intaki system and surrounding areas, at least one from the Intaki Assembly itself and another from CONCORD.

Monsieur Bataav is correct in stating that the matter at hand is that the request for abstaining from Federal security involvement in the Intaki system was made prior to the current astropolitical climate and needs to be reassessed. The dilemma here being the bureaucracy and getting enough voices through the cacophony to get the attention of the people sitting in the positions of power to do something about it. Which, I believe, is part of what the ILF and other groups are doing and have done.

However, it should be stated that the Federation did not decide that the Intaki system would be included in the CEWPA establishe warzone (at least not to my, albeit limited, understanding). So the Federation cannot be faulted for that. Where the Federation is at fault is in not immediately reaching out to the Intaki people and offering to reassess their charter to provide more logistical support among other things. The navies, in general, do not involve themselves in the capsuleer war but the Federation could have responded to the situation in order to provide security from pirates and other dangers in the area or perhaps provided incentive to capsuleers to do so.

The situation is a work in progress that calls to attention many things that could be addressed to improve the overall quality of life and structure for many within the Federation and it is moments like these that define whether we grow and become better for them or collapse under the strain.

I believe we are capable of the former but it will take a committed and concentrated effort from every party involved.

...and likely a great deal of time and patience.


Regarding your last two statements: The Intaki Assembly's vote to restrain Federal involvement in their affairs is one of the things that needs to be reassessed to give the Intaki a voice in the current astropolitical climate and decide whether they wish to amend Federal involvement or not, and (more importantly) if so, in what ways. Second, the Federation is hardly "pressuring" the Intaki - I do believe the crux of their plight is rather quite the opposite.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#63 - 2015-03-26 18:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Bourbon Limoges wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it.


I suspect people make fun of you for not knowing what the word "slave" means. Perhaps there is some credible documentation of the Intaki "enslavement" to which you may point?


I have never outright said that the Intaki were enslaved. Rather they are much so oppressed. I will stand my grounds on this topic.


Pilot Toralen, I do believe you are mincing words here. Although I do not believe it is deliberate on your part. There is little evidence that Federation policies are intended to oppress those of Intaki ethnicity. And absolutely zero evidence of any sort of enslavement being legal within Federation space.

It I understand Pilot Bataav correctly, the present relations between Gallente and Intaki could be greatly improved through social understanding.


As previously stated I never said anything of slavery in the typical sense. However, I do believe the Intaki are being oppressed.

For a short-term solution I propose that Capsuleers attempt to form the Intaki System into a Trade Hub. I will consider deploying a new Station in the Intaki System. I will also attempt to recieve help from 4th Division, a Caldari Loyalist Alliance who also holds terriotories in the Providence System. They have multiple member Corps from Manufacturing to Trade, also including the Caldari Independent Navy Reserve.


Let me make sure I understand you correctly.
You are openly suggesting the idea of receiving help from a Caldari Loyalist Alliance, which is allied with the CVA a null-sec extension of the Amarr Empire, in order to establish a trade hub located in a war-zone which is historically a sovereign system of The Federation, on the notion of "Liberating" the Intaki.

In reality, Pilot Toralen, does not appear to have the interest of the Intaki in mind at all. Instead his suggestion of a trade-hub would become a de-facto financial center, and Forward Operating Base for Caldari para-military forces within Federation Space. Therefore inviting more pirates, more criminals, more mercenaries, as well as those Caldari who still believe in the lies of the Provists.

This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#64 - 2015-03-26 18:37:16 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:


This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.


I am shocked... shocked I tell you!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2015-03-26 19:00:26 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.


This is a bad thing, why?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-03-26 19:04:25 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

This is a bad thing, why?


Cause **** you, that's why!
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#67 - 2015-03-26 19:12:21 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.


This is a bad thing, why?


Because it is a provocation designed to stoke further conflict between the Federation and the State. Further conflict, more dead on both sides, more grievances, and thus further conflict.

Y'know why I think the Caldari are so eager to see conflict between the Federation and the Intaki? Because a successfully and peacefully integrated Intaki Prime proves every day what lies the Caldari Secession was predicated on.

That's why the Unionist Megacorps couldn't be simply left in peace to live on Caldari Prime. They had to drink tea, because if they lived on in peace with their Gallente neighbors, the Secessionists would have lost nationalist conflict as a tool for oppressing their Caldari brothers.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#68 - 2015-03-26 19:38:23 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.


This is a bad thing, why?


Because it is a provocation designed to stoke further conflict between the Federation and the State. Further conflict, more dead on both sides, more grievances, and thus further conflict.

Y'know why I think the Caldari are so eager to see conflict between the Federation and the Intaki? Because a successfully and peacefully integrated Intaki Prime proves every day what lies the Caldari Secession was predicated on.

That's why the Unionist Megacorps couldn't be simply left in peace to live on Caldari Prime. They had to drink tea, because if they lived on in peace with their Gallente neighbors, the Secessionists would have lost nationalist conflict as a tool for oppressing their Caldari brothers.


Of course it takes those of The Federation to explain this to State puppets and wannabe puppeteers.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#69 - 2015-03-26 19:40:38 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.


This is a bad thing, why?



Come now, Monsieur Tuulinen - this is beneath you.

Unless, of course, all of your previous discussion regarding a desire for peaceful resolution to conflict and stability for both our peoples has been naught more than hot air.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-03-26 19:50:26 UTC
I always found it amusing how fast the matter of Intaki Liberation always turned to some debate on Federation versus State ideals - at this point I'm beginning to wonder if it is some failed Political Correctness bridge into the conversation like when someone says "no offense" and follows it up with the most offensive dialogue they can muster...

My apologies if I seem obtuse but one of the primary philosophies of Ida is moderation and that is a very difficult thing to attain when the constant bickering and debate of something loosely related keeps being brought up.

Though I suppose ego runs rampant among both the Federation and the State - their only real commonality besides their inherent hatred of one another...

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#71 - 2015-03-26 19:58:31 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
I always found it amusing how fast the matter of Intaki Liberation always turned to some debate on Federation versus State ideals - at this point I'm beginning to wonder if it is some failed Political Correctness bridge into the conversation like when someone says "no offense" and follows it up with the most offensive dialogue they can muster...

My apologies if I seem obtuse but one of the primary philosophies of Ida is moderation and that is a very difficult thing to attain when the constant bickering and debate of something loosely related keeps being brought up.

Though I suppose ego runs rampant among both the Federation and the State - their only real commonality besides their inherent hatred of one another...


You need not apologize, monsieur.

I, however, do. I did contribute to an unrelated tangent and I extend my apologies for that contribution.

My stance on the idea of Intaki Independence has been made clear more than once.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#72 - 2015-03-26 20:03:02 UTC
Hell, this whole topic was started by an Amarrian loyalist of Caldari origin to be a "Declaration" against the Federation. It didn't "become" derailed by Fed/State politics... it was created as bait for such a discussion.
Jukko Riis
Doomheim
#73 - 2015-03-26 20:15:35 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:

Because it is a provocation designed to stoke further conflict between the Federation and the State. Further conflict, more dead on both sides, more grievances, and thus further conflict.

Y'know why I think the Caldari are so eager to see conflict between the Federation and the Intaki? Because a successfully and peacefully integrated Intaki Prime proves every day what lies the Caldari Secession was predicated on.

That's why the Unionist Megacorps couldn't be simply left in peace to live on Caldari Prime. They had to drink tea, because if they lived on in peace with their Gallente neighbors, the Secessionists would have lost nationalist conflict as a tool for oppressing their Caldari brothers.





Gallente occupation of Caldari Prime is more than enough reason for "further conflict between the Federation and the State."

And like I said, the rot at the core of the Federation gets a real mad on when someone else wants what they have. The Federation will never allow a free Intaki while the current regime is in power. They would see the planet destroyed before they would allow an Intaki Free State, or worse, an Intaki allied with Caldari. History repeats itself. And what we've seen here in the Rise, is exactly what we'd see happen to Intaki. Slash and burn. This strategic pattern goes all the way back to when we first told the Federation to get stuffed.

And Heth or no Heth, the State would have had an eventual confrontation with the Federation over our home world, because it's our homeworld! Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that any Caldari is happy with the current situation.

But I digress.

Intaki is nine jumps away from Ichoriya. Keep jumping coreward and you get to Jita pretty quick. That puts the Rise right in the middle of one and potentially two major trade hubs. So a free, prosperous Intaki is very much in the best interests of the people and corporations here.

BRCE: Mission Statement!
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#74 - 2015-03-26 20:25:31 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Hell, this whole topic was started by an Amarrian loyalist of Caldari origin to be a "Declaration" against the Federation. It didn't "become" derailed by Fed/State politics... it was created as bait for such a discussion.

*Stacks of law books related to Faction Warfare and the Intaki system fills the screen*

*Claudia's head pops out from behind one of the stacks*

What kind of dumb ass would take that kind of bait?




*Claudia disappears behind the stack again*






....... I wish I had paid attention during law class, none of this makes any sense.


*The feed cuts out*

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#75 - 2015-03-26 20:41:56 UTC
Jukko Riis wrote:


Gallente occupation of Caldari Prime is more than enough reason for "further conflict between the Federation and the State."

...

And Heth or no Heth, the State would have had an eventual confrontation with the Federation over our home world, because it's our homeworld! Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that any Caldari is happy with the current situation.



Spare me the "my suffering home world" lament. I grew up on Caldari Prime. You don't speak for that planet any more than you do Intaki, boy.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#76 - 2015-03-26 21:24:51 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.


This is a bad thing, why?


Because it is a provocation designed to stoke further conflict between the Federation and the State. Further conflict, more dead on both sides, more grievances, and thus further conflict.

Y'know why I think the Caldari are so eager to see conflict between the Federation and the Intaki? Because a successfully and peacefully integrated Intaki Prime proves every day what lies the Caldari Secession was predicated on.

That's why the Unionist Megacorps couldn't be simply left in peace to live on Caldari Prime. They had to drink tea, because if they lived on in peace with their Gallente neighbors, the Secessionists would have lost nationalist conflict as a tool for oppressing their Caldari brothers.


It's probably a good thing for the Caldari soul that the U-Nats decided to make all that navel gazing moot, eh? I'm of the opinion that Sobaseki spared the Unionists from a painful suicide later on when the Federation they claimed would never act in so horrible a manner decided to orbitally bombard the planet and invade it.

I'm surprised, for shame, that you dare speak of Caldari opressing Caldari against that sort of a backdrop.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2015-03-26 21:25:54 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.


This is a bad thing, why?



Come now, Monsieur Tuulinen - this is beneath you.

Unless, of course, all of your previous discussion regarding a desire for peaceful resolution to conflict and stability for both our peoples has been naught more than hot air.


I was, of course, being glib. You'll recall I never suggested that a free Intaki should leap into bed with the State - in fact I discouraged it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#78 - 2015-03-26 21:29:53 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Jukko Riis wrote:


Gallente occupation of Caldari Prime is more than enough reason for "further conflict between the Federation and the State."

...

And Heth or no Heth, the State would have had an eventual confrontation with the Federation over our home world, because it's our homeworld! Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that any Caldari is happy with the current situation.



Spare me the "my suffering home world" lament. I grew up on Caldari Prime. You don't speak for that planet any more than you do Intaki, boy.



I however do speak for Caldari Prime. Caldari Prime is our homeworld, and it is ours. This is the very proof required that the Federation's lies of freedom is just that, lies. Also, as I feel I have to constantly repeat my allegiance to the Empire is simply to acquire their technology, as is the purpose of most of the State's alliance with the Empire.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#79 - 2015-03-26 21:32:05 UTC
Jukko Riis wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:

Because it is a provocation designed to stoke further conflict between the Federation and the State. Further conflict, more dead on both sides, more grievances, and thus further conflict.

Y'know why I think the Caldari are so eager to see conflict between the Federation and the Intaki? Because a successfully and peacefully integrated Intaki Prime proves every day what lies the Caldari Secession was predicated on.

That's why the Unionist Megacorps couldn't be simply left in peace to live on Caldari Prime. They had to drink tea, because if they lived on in peace with their Gallente neighbors, the Secessionists would have lost nationalist conflict as a tool for oppressing their Caldari brothers.





Gallente occupation of Caldari Prime is more than enough reason for "further conflict between the Federation and the State."

And like I said, the rot at the core of the Federation gets a real mad on when someone else wants what they have. The Federation will never allow a free Intaki while the current regime is in power. They would see the planet destroyed before they would allow an Intaki Free State, or worse, an Intaki allied with Caldari. History repeats itself. And what we've seen here in the Rise, is exactly what we'd see happen to Intaki. Slash and burn. This strategic pattern goes all the way back to when we first told the Federation to get stuffed.

And Heth or no Heth, the State would have had an eventual confrontation with the Federation over our home world, because it's our homeworld! Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that any Caldari is happy with the current situation.

But I digress.

Intaki is nine jumps away from Ichoriya. Keep jumping coreward and you get to Jita pretty quick. That puts the Rise right in the middle of one and potentially two major trade hubs. So a free, prosperous Intaki is very much in the best interests of the people and corporations here.



Well said. Intaki as a trade-hub would completely evolutionize the Political playground, supporting the Intaki as a whole.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#80 - 2015-03-26 21:36:44 UTC
Let me make sure I understand you correctly.
You are openly suggesting the idea of receiving help from a Caldari Loyalist Alliance, which is allied with the CVA a null-sec extension of the Amarr Empire, in order to establish a trade hub located in a war-zone which is historically a sovereign system of The Federation, on the notion of "Liberating" the Intaki.

In reality, Pilot Toralen, does not appear to have the interest of the Intaki in mind at all. Instead his suggestion of a trade-hub would become a de-facto financial center, and Forward Operating Base for Caldari para-military forces within Federation Space. Therefore inviting more pirates, more criminals, more mercenaries, as well as those Caldari who still believe in the lies of the Provists.

This can be seen as a deliberate suggestion to undermine the sovereignty of a system of the Federation.[/quote]

No. While I do not speak directly for 4th Division, the reason for there alliance with the CVA is a common-goal in the Providence System, security. I would not dream of using the Intaki System as a FOB for Caldari forces. My proposition was exactly the opposite. 4th Division could provide more security then is present (no disregards to the ILF) to help form it into a Trade Hub, and also to help advance the local Intaki Populance.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.