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Intaki Liberation

Author
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#41 - 2015-03-26 01:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bataav
It's reassuring when new voices join the debate on Intaki's place within, or without, the Gallente Federation.

I've been content to watch this particular discussion, as I don't want to draw attention away from Mr Toralen and towards the Intaki Liberation Front.

However I do want to comment on some points made so far:

While Mr Toralen's opening statement talks about the Intaki leaving the Federation, the ILF do not campaign for ethnic nationalism. Ethnic nationalism risks attracting those with more extreme views, such as Intaki Pure.

Ethnic nationalism is countered by those who point to people of Intaki heritage content in their lives throughout the Federation, and as can be seen in this discussion, former President Foiritan is invariably cited as an argument against discrimination of oppression against us.

But that's not to say that injustice does not exist.

In the Solitude region for example, Intaki regularly find themselves to be the victims of prejudice and intolerance, treated as criminals because of the activities of the Syndicate. The fact that the vast majority are innocent, law abiding citizens appears irrelevent.

In contrast, the ILF focuses on civic self-determination. On establishing a sovereign state (note the small s) built around the Intaki home system and her colonies.

I note that some refer to the Intaki system's low security rating, and make the old suggestion that the Intaki somehow asked for 0.1 status.

The Assembly's request for any Federal military presence to be kept to a minimum is the often used reason behind this, but as we have consistently pointed out, the security threats of the time were very different to those of today, and most importantly pre-date the creation of CONCORD and its security rating system.

In recent years the Assembly famously contracted Mordu's Legion in an effort to improve security within the home system, and there is no reason to believe that an independent Intaki state would not become a CONCORD signatory.

CEWPA and the milita conflict is a different matter, however.

I have a very hard time believing the Intaki Assembly consciously volunteered Intaki as a front line system. The hard working people of Intaki and neighbouring systems have little interest in the pendulum swing of influence that exists between capsuleer militias. An independent Intaki state would create a buffer beween the Gallente Federation and Caldari State, on one front, and that can only be a positive move.
Aedre Lafisques wrote:
Before I start with my position in this matter, I would like to inquire which corporation within the GMVA it was that fired on the ILF recently. I cannot speak for the GMVA as a whole, but as a member of a founding corporation, this issue is of interest to us, and a matter that may bear internal discussion.
While Gallente Rebels Inc. are currently the most aggressive group within GMVA towards ILF anti-pirate patrols, as recently as late last month an ILF pilot was engaged and lost his ship to Moira.

That said, I'm happy for Mr Toralen to take to the fore here once again. Our door is always open should he wish to make contact.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2015-03-26 02:26:52 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
The Intaki people are daily punished, forced to fight the Federations War, and financially oppressed by the greater Federation.

I don't recall any laws being passed that require the Intaki people to engage in the war.


Concord Emergency Milita Powers War Act.

Being put into the warzone DOES require the Intaki to engage in the war. Frankly, the Intaki people should be furious - can you imagine the way that the Achuran people would feel if the State had nominated the Saisio system for the warzone?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aedre Lafisques
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#43 - 2015-03-26 03:31:09 UTC
Thank you Bataav, for the input.

I will root around for what official policies are currently in place. Overview settings might be an issue, or there might be some political indifference on the part of the line members - or Federal pressure on the Alliance as a whole. I will see what answers I can get and report.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2015-03-26 08:04:00 UTC
Aedre Lafisques wrote:
Thank you Bataav, for the input.

I will root around for what official policies are currently in place. Overview settings might be an issue, or there might be some political indifference on the part of the line members - or Federal pressure on the Alliance as a whole. I will see what answers I can get and report.


Given the response from others within Villore Accords, I highly doubt you'll get much sway - they seem intent on engaging the ILF for whatever reason; general bloodthirst, perhaps.

I don't speak for them, however, so I'll Bataav and yourself to your own affairs.

I will say, though, that I have been thinking about returning to Intaki to perform my own police actions free of the policy and procedure that the ILF seems to place on their followers... I believe in their message but not their manners.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#45 - 2015-03-26 12:13:11 UTC
Thank you for the input Bataav, it was much appreciated. I am content if conversation is drawn away from me if it leads to the greater good for the Intaki.

Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it. As a Caldari I stand very proud on this subject, as we were once under the Federation as well. This is a rally call for the Intaki people. There are people out here willing to help, all you have to do is say 'Yes'.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.

Bourbon Limoges
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-03-26 14:28:32 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it.


I suspect people make fun of you for not knowing what the word "slave" means. Perhaps there is some credible documentation of the Intaki "enslavement" to which you may point?
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#47 - 2015-03-26 14:31:49 UTC
Bourbon Limoges wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it.


I suspect people make fun of you for not knowing what the word "slave" means. Perhaps there is some credible documentation of the Intaki "enslavement" to which you may point?


I have never outright said that the Intaki were enslaved. Rather they are much so oppressed. I will stand my grounds on this topic.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.

Vechtor
DuPont Enterprises
Perpetual Alliance
#48 - 2015-03-26 14:44:49 UTC
Aedre Lafisques wrote:

What every Capsuleer can do today, tomorrow, is stop when passing through Intaki and its sister systems, and sweep it of the rats and wanted Capsuleers that plague the constellation due to its unfortunate CONCORD assignment. This is a fully plausible action that legal Capsuleers can actively participate in, for the improvement of, if not its security on paper, the security and prosperity of the people who live there. The ILF and the IPI work diligently to create a viable market hub in this area. Stop there, buy equipment, chase out the pirates, and it won't matter that CONCORD won't step in. This is something every one of us can do. --Including the less than legal types among us, to be honest.


I'd love to buy things in Intaki if they were there to be sold. I could also try to sell things there but ultimately, I don't want to end up selling hardware to pirates.

Nomistrav wrote:

I will say, though, that I have been thinking about returning to Intaki to perform my own police actions free of the policy and procedure that the ILF seems to place on their followers... I believe in their message but not their manners.


Tempting...
Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#49 - 2015-03-26 14:52:49 UTC
We could attempt to make Intaki into a Trade System. If we could get people to buy and sell things more at Intaki, it could become a Trade Hub. We influence where the Trade Hubs are.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.

Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#50 - 2015-03-26 15:12:22 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Bourbon Limoges wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it.


I suspect people make fun of you for not knowing what the word "slave" means. Perhaps there is some credible documentation of the Intaki "enslavement" to which you may point?


I have never outright said that the Intaki were enslaved. Rather they are much so oppressed. I will stand my grounds on this topic.


Pilot Toralen, I do believe you are mincing words here. Although I do not believe it is deliberate on your part. There is little evidence that Federation policies are intended to oppress those of Intaki ethnicity. And absolutely zero evidence of any sort of enslavement being legal within Federation space.

It I understand Pilot Bataav correctly, the present relations between Gallente and Intaki could be greatly improved through social understanding.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#51 - 2015-03-26 15:23:43 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Bourbon Limoges wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it.


I suspect people make fun of you for not knowing what the word "slave" means. Perhaps there is some credible documentation of the Intaki "enslavement" to which you may point?


I have never outright said that the Intaki were enslaved. Rather they are much so oppressed. I will stand my grounds on this topic.


Pilot Toralen, I do believe you are mincing words here. Although I do not believe it is deliberate on your part. There is little evidence that Federation policies are intended to oppress those of Intaki ethnicity. And absolutely zero evidence of any sort of enslavement being legal within Federation space.

It I understand Pilot Bataav correctly, the present relations between Gallente and Intaki could be greatly improved through social understanding.


As previously stated I never said anything of slavery in the typical sense. However, I do believe the Intaki are being oppressed.

For a short-term solution I propose that Capsuleers attempt to form the Intaki System into a Trade Hub. I will consider deploying a new Station in the Intaki System. I will also attempt to recieve help from 4th Division, a Caldari Loyalist Alliance who also holds terriotories in the Providence System. They have multiple member Corps from Manufacturing to Trade, also including the Caldari Independent Navy Reserve.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.

Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp
#52 - 2015-03-26 15:37:23 UTC
I might suggest close attention to the possible development of Administration Hubs ... and their potential uses.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/

"Administration Hubs
Service module possibilities: territorial Sovereignty flag, modifiers to change the security status of a solar system, to change NPC agents spread in the solar system, to switch NPC faction control or NPC security forces."

If sovereignty is not required to deploy these structures, this may have potential application(s) for the Intaki system.
Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
#53 - 2015-03-26 16:03:35 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:
I am here today to make a declaration. The Intaki must be freed from the grasp of the Gallente Federation. While I am a Deiteis fighting for the Amarrian Empire (at least for now), I know there are many Intaki who wish to be fully liberated. For example, Mordu's Legion, the Syndicate, and the Capsuleer Organization known as the Intaki Liberation Force. The Intaki people should be free. Us Caldari know the hardships of the Intaki better then anyone. We were once forced to bow to the Federation. They call the Empire immoral, but they do the same to the Intaki, and formerly to the Caldari.


Monsieur,

It generally falls upon a people, or their self-appointed representative(s), to speak on behalf of a people living within a Democracy. (The form of government maintained by the Gallente Federation). The Intaki people are as diverse as any other and many may desire separation from the Federation while many others may desire to remain within the Federation; neither group has requested your representation in speaking on their behalf and both groups have represented themselves countless times in multiple venues. This is part of an open democratic society.

There are many among the Gallente, such as myself, who would desire to see reparation and restoration between the Federation and the groups of the Intaki that seek to separate from it. We are dedicated to building relationships, opening dialogue and being sincerely invested in the needs and desires of these groups to try and foster a closer unity between these disparate groups.

There are some who believe the Intaki separatist groups are dissenters and traitors who must be cowed into submission. I would disagree vehemently with these individuals, but they do exist and they have a voice. Such is the nature of an open democratic society.

The Intaki people have more than one venue within which to represent themselves and they have done so properly, with tact and diplomacy where possible.

In short, let the Intaki represent themselves in the manner and venues in which they so choose.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Able Citizen
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#54 - 2015-03-26 16:13:58 UTC
I must echo the critiques levied at Dailar Toralen regarding his chosen wording in the "declaration". While we all may define words in a slightly different manner - cultural definitions matter - to suggest that the Federation oppresses the Intaki specifically is, in my mind, quite an overreach in definition.

I do not recall which capsuleer said it within this discussion, but of all the oppressed people (after all, aren't all of us oppressed to some extent by imperialist groups - within or outside the four main factions - in that freedom of movement is controlled and resources hoarded?) the Intaki are far from the highest priority.

Do not read this message as carte blanche support of the Federation; I have many criticisms for those dogs that sit in the seats of power, believe me. In addition, this is not to say that the Intaki people could not expand their freedoms and self-determination; either within our outside of Gallente space.

Instead of targeting the one faction that adheres as close to true democracy as exists in New Eden - especially from one who fights FOR the most regressive of Empires, to say the least - perhaps attention should be placed on uniting capsuleers around resisting ALL forms of oppression. While the best need not be the enemy of the better, and despite our immortal existence, time is indeed finite and prioritization is the key to bringing about change in the cluster.
Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
#55 - 2015-03-26 16:20:42 UTC
Monsieur Bataav,

While I am confident you know where I stand in regards to the plights faced by many Intaki in various systems across the cluster under the governance of the Federation, I wish to take a moment to reiterate them since the avenue is open.

First, I thank you publicly for the conversations we have held in the past and for the patience and grace with which you have entreated me previously. I trust we will continue to operate on the same level of courtesy and mutual respect we have in the past.

To the matter at hand,

The suffering and hardship endured by many Intaki throughout various systems of the Federation is deplorable and while I fully understand and appreciate your stance and dilemma, I would suggest that it points to a larger problem at the heart of the Federation. There are groups spread throughout the jurisdiction of the Federation that suffer from isolation, prejudice, poverty, negligence and any combination thereof, and these are problems that the Federation, as a united entity, should be working toward rectifying.

Separating from the Federation will not help resolve the plights of the people living within it, nor would it help alleviate the hardships endured by the Intaki that remain under the jurisdiction of the Federation should the Intaki State be recognized as a separate entity. On the contrary, it will exacerbate the problem and cause even further divisions (time, resources, attention), causing even more to be overlooked as the governing bodies of our respective entities turn their attention elsewhere.

Calling attention to the problem is good and I encourage you and yours to continue doing so. However, I would also encourage you to consider rallying with those of us trying to repair and restore the unity between our peoples to help repair and improve the state of living for many both within and without the Intaki and surrounding regions.

As always, you have my respect and consideration.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
#56 - 2015-03-26 16:26:18 UTC
Aedre Lafisques wrote:
Thank you Bataav, for the input.

I will root around for what official policies are currently in place. Overview settings might be an issue, or there might be some political indifference on the part of the line members - or Federal pressure on the Alliance as a whole. I will see what answers I can get and report.


At this time GMVA has no formal diplomatic relationship with ILF at the alliance level. How our member Corporations and Pilots interact with so called "Neutral" parties is not typically an Alliance concern until such a relationship is established.

This policy may seem harsh towards the ILF, or neglectful of the Intaki issue, but considering Moira's distant history of war with the ILF and its Caldari allies things could certainly be worse.

Villore Accords leadership believes that Intaki Sovereignty is vested with the Intaki People through their elected Assembly. We have respected the legitimacy of the Assembly, even at those times when we have vehemently disagreed with their decisions. Such as their refusal to allow the Federation Navy to reestablish Security operations within the Intaki home system.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#57 - 2015-03-26 16:51:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Dailar Toralen wrote:
The Intaki people are daily punished, forced to fight the Federations War, and financially oppressed by the greater Federation.

I don't recall any laws being passed that require the Intaki people to engage in the war.


Concord Emergency Milita Powers War Act.

Being put into the warzone DOES require the Intaki to engage in the war. Frankly, the Intaki people should be furious - can you imagine the way that the Achuran people would feel if the State had nominated the Saisio system for the warzone?

Odd, I can't seem to find any reference to the Federation, or any of the empires for that matter, getting to choose the boundary of the war zone. Could you provide a link to this information so that I might correct my position on this matter?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-03-26 16:56:34 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:


At this time GMVA has no formal diplomatic relationship with ILF at the alliance level. How our member Corporations and Pilots interact with so called "Neutral" parties is not typically an Alliance concern until such a relationship is established.


Imagine that.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#59 - 2015-03-26 17:07:02 UTC
Feu dAstres wrote:
I might suggest close attention to the possible development of Administration Hubs ... and their potential uses.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/

"Administration Hubs
Service module possibilities: territorial Sovereignty flag, modifiers to change the security status of a solar system, to change NPC agents spread in the solar system, to switch NPC faction control or NPC security forces."

If sovereignty is not required to deploy these structures, this may have potential application(s) for the Intaki system.


This is a very logical and agreeble idea, but as of now this is not a viable option. Also, for all of you commenting on me and my Corporations service to the Amarrian Empire, I simply do this to gain their resources. There technology is much more advanced then the other Empires, and I serve the Empire simply to gain their assets. In truth, this is the reason for the whole State's alliance with the Empire.

As I have said many times, the Caldari are very supportive of the Intaki Situation, or at least most of us, as we have been through the same exact thing, and we can became one of the Greatest Empire's out there.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.

Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2015-03-26 17:08:00 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:
Many people continually make fun of me for stating that the Gallente Federation is no different from the Amarr Empire, as the Empire holds slaves. At least the Empire does it because they believe they are guided by god. The Federation does it because.......why? No excuse. No reason. They just do it.

Dailar Toralen wrote:
As previously stated I never said anything of slavery in the typical sense. However, I do believe the Intaki are being oppressed.


The Federation does what exactly Toralen? Because from the first quote it reads as though you are accusing the Federation of holding slaves. If that is not what you were implying then perhaps you would like to rephrase yourself for the clarity of those listening?




As others like Bataav and Liam have already pointed out, the plight of the Intaki people is a complicated issue within the Federation. I understand that our ideals and political structure must seem strange and alien to someone from the State, but living in a democracy as we do means that at the end of the day the Intaki people are the masters of their own destiny. It also means that they are open to criticism from other elements of gallentean society. That is part of the price paid for respecting freedom of speech.
It is not a perfect system by any means but it is the system we the people believe in. The protean nature of democracy allows us to participate in, and change the aspects we deem in need of fixing. If your spaceship is damaged you do not throw away the entire ship because it does not work, you fix it. So it is with the Federation.

Can the Federation do more for Intaki? Yes, absolutely. Should it? Yes, absolutely, if that is what the Intaki want.
The inclusion of the Intaki in the militia warzone complicates these matters. The question of Intaki independence, either as its own independent state or a formal bastion within the Federation, cannot be reasonably, and honestly pursued while the Caldari/Gallente militia war continues.
If the Intaki are to be free then their home and neighboring systems need to be removed from the warzone, and their security rating formally raised to be in compliance with the rest of Federal systems. Anything less simply turns the Intaki into another political pawn to be moved and bartered with by State and Federal politicians and diplomats.