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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3301 - 2015-03-07 06:01:14 UTC
I have been looking at the timezones. Now, I know that EVE is not only played in these countries but the main timezones of relevance would probably be:

UTC for Europe
Moscow +3
Australia +11
PST -8 (USA west)
EST -5 (USA east)

For prime times, the 24 hour distribution looks something like: 

 UTC   RUS           AU          PST   EST    
  | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
  0    +3            +11         -8    -5


I honestly don’t think 4 hours is adequate. You can see a couple of large zones around AU for a start, and even Europe and USA are too far apart.

What about a system whereby the prime time concept is still active but this is a peak time, rather than cut-off? Perhaps according to Greygal’s suggestion of the extent of this window being defined by sov indexes.

Or what about having it fade in and out, with a sliding percentage of structures being available for an hour or two either side of prime time?

I am concerned about the AU timezone. I think AU players will become second class citizens in null. And yet I agree that sov shouldn't require a 24h defence. Perhaps a graduated approach could work.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3302 - 2015-03-07 06:01:50 UTC
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#3303 - 2015-03-07 06:02:29 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:

This would also mean there are actually 40K PLAYERS in CFC, and the answer is that there isnt. I would like to see all players multiboxing all their alts for both these things. It would be killmail farming heaven for everyone else, unless they all have 4-10 monitors each.


What? Multi boxing can be done on 1 screen with various programs.


In addition I would have to point out that nowadays screens are cheap. Be it then using a single 4k screen (8 megapixels, eve minimum resolution is 0.79 megapixels at 1024x768 so max 10 client without overlapping) or multiple 1080p screens (ok for 2 clients with minimal overalp at 1024x1080 resolution or 1080x960 if in portrait).

With minimum settings EVE is very conservative with resources. A 6 year old half decent PC can run 10 clients without major issues with main limitation being the GFX memory (you want about 250 MB per client) (AMD 1050, 16 GB RAM, AMD 7870 2 GB GFX card). If running more than 2-3 clients I would strongly suggest putting EVE on a SSD - it seems to help with session change times.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#3304 - 2015-03-07 06:06:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Fights will still escalate in the new system, even without mountains of EHP to grind though.


I suspect so, I merely wonder now that the paradigm is shifting to **** jousting in small disposable ships (like FW), whether or not people will commit expensive, vulnerable assets if they can get the job done without it.


Ofcource they will. If you have, say, 20 dudes there is a difference if you are goofing around with shiny ships or throwaway ships. And that new system rewards smaller combat groups so the individual pilot skill and quality of the setup will matter more.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3305 - 2015-03-07 06:11:18 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Ooh your forum skills are exquisite.

:) I found a new button.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3306 - 2015-03-07 06:12:15 UTC
I disagreed with the Aussies who framed their questions about TZ isolation so negatively. True, there's the awkwardness of being outside every other TZ, but there's also the benefit of being outside every other TZ.

They're also geographically offset from the rest of the world, playing a game that has worldwide participation. Entosis sov is attempting to be fair to everyone, so the offset will be there unless some concessions are made just for Aussies.

The Aussies' questions in the EVE Down Under interview were defeatist, meaning they focused on what they would lose, rather than what they'd gain. Another thing that makes me question their logic was the reaction to Fozzie's mention of why AFK cloaky is not a problem in wormholes. He was only implying that local is double-edged, but it seemed at least a couple of those in attendance jumped to the conclusion that local is going away.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3307 - 2015-03-07 06:26:44 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I disagreed with the Aussies who framed their questions about TZ isolation so negatively. True, there's the awkwardness of being outside every other TZ, but there's also the benefit of being outside every other TZ.

They're also geographically offset from the rest of the world, playing a game that has worldwide participation. Entosis sov is attempting to be fair to everyone, so the offset will be there unless some concessions are made just for Aussies.

The Aussies' questions in the EVE Down Under interview were defeatist, meaning they focused on what they would lose, rather than what they'd gain. Another thing that makes me question their logic was the reaction to Fozzie's mention of why AFK cloaky is not a problem in wormholes. He was only implying that local is double-edged, but it seemed at least a couple of those in attendance jumped to the conclusion that local is going away.

I doubt local will go away. Probably some sort of delay or, more likely, a local cloak.

I also broadly agree with your comments on the timezone but I think there could be a middle ground where AU is included but not necessarily at full scale. This would help prevent defensive AU prime timing while also help accessibility.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3308 - 2015-03-07 06:42:48 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
But if you would rather I stepped aside to make room for other CSM to talk to you.

/me steps to one side

oh, look









yeah

Hehe, they certainly are all conspicuous by their absence. Shameful.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3309 - 2015-03-07 07:13:35 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I disagreed with the Aussies who framed their questions about TZ isolation so negatively. True, there's the awkwardness of being outside every other TZ, but there's also the benefit of being outside every other TZ.

They're also geographically offset from the rest of the world, playing a game that has worldwide participation. Entosis sov is attempting to be fair to everyone, so the offset will be there unless some concessions are made just for Aussies.

The Aussies' questions in the EVE Down Under interview were defeatist, meaning they focused on what they would lose, rather than what they'd gain. Another thing that makes me question their logic was the reaction to Fozzie's mention of why AFK cloaky is not a problem in wormholes. He was only implying that local is double-edged, but it seemed at least a couple of those in attendance jumped to the conclusion that local is going away.

So we should look for a front where we REALLY don't want to fight, and then

give our AUTZ guys ratting rights there?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3310 - 2015-03-07 07:18:13 UTC
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3311 - 2015-03-07 07:26:08 UTC
Well actually it wouldn't work unless they formed into an alliance of their own to hold the sov and set the timers so *sigh*

CFCAUTZAlliance just doesn't have the right ring to it

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#3312 - 2015-03-07 07:26:38 UTC
MajorScrewup wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
A few side thoughts

The scorpion and the frog parable is nice . . . but do you recall the fate of both of them?

A few years ago when FW came out people called it a warmup for getting into null, null lite. Looks like they were wrong and null was FW lite and just warming up to now.

A friend in the game sent me an answer to my question of why do people do sov in null. He is a director in a fair sized null organization.

I will not name him or her since I failed to ask permission but this is what I got, summarized

Quote:
Resources: Null has the best ore access, slightly better ice ratting loot, officer and faction modules. and moons.
Isk: Null has the most efficient ratting opportunities, and player localized player markets.
Safety: stations secure assets, allow for unlimited storage.
Power: SOV lets you put your name on the map to show your strength by how many systems you control.
In conclusion, pilots want SOV to have a home, plant a flag, and gather resources/wealth.


I think that did a decent job of summing it up. Do you have anything to add/debate?

m


I've lived in null space for the majority of my EvE playing time. I don't know if any of those statements are true or not, as they don't interest me that much. Their simply activities that can be done there, but aren't done enough for my liking as the risk vs reward / time vs enjoyment doesn't seem to be worth it.

I live in null space for the potential of PvP, whether its small fights or large fights. Flying through empty regions is soul destroying. There is a lot more activity in systems in hi-sec and I'd like that in null sec too, so that there are more opportunities for the fun part of EvE (to me) and the point of the wild frontiers of null sec space. Fighting others players.

Seeing he didn't add PvP on that list worries me....


Seeing as all of that REQUIRES PvP.....im not surprised by your lackluster attitude....PvP? EvE is PvP.
MajorScrewup
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3313 - 2015-03-07 07:27:35 UTC
Maybe some smart alliance should start grabbing every PvP centric Aussie corp out there ready for June and set their prime time to Oceanic to protect their space forever.

This will ensure their EU/ US members the freedom to run havoc on all the map while knowing their space is untouchable except for other alliances alarming clocking for months.

The system obviously will work, i remove all complaints I have had.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3314 - 2015-03-07 07:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Well actually it wouldn't work unless they formed into an alliance of their own to hold the sov and set the timers so *sigh*

CFCAUTZAlliance just doesn't have the right ring to it

Ah, ok I see what you mean. I still think everyone has a role, and some of us are in a better position to do certain things than others. I have a hard time feeling sorry for anyone when it comes to ratting income or playing for free (or playing with an ISK motive), because I don't. I pay irl money for subs, scramble for stratop pings with my Ishtars, which are the only ships I have my characters fit with, aside from an unfit, unrigged Thanatos to haul those Ishtars around while I scout.

Maybe it's a veteran thing. I'm here for the gangbangs and ISK has nothing to do with it.

There's also the assumption that every TZ behaves the same way by time of day, which I flat out disagree with. I stay up at all hours of the day, and it's not uncommon for me to be awake at downtime. I'm in Los Angeles, and EU is 8h ahead of me, but I still find myself playing in EU prime time. By time of day, AU is five hours behind me. Sure, there's a calendar date difference, but 11:30 PM for me (right now) is 6:30 PM in Sydney. Everyone has to extend themselves sometimes.

The other assumption is that it's healthy for a group to be exclusively one TZ. It helps to have friends. We have to help each other out.


I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but lastly, if I was offset from everyone in the world (If that is true, I mean), then wouldn't it be easier to rat? I don't know. I don't rat and I'm normally damn near broke and I don't care.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3315 - 2015-03-07 09:29:56 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:

This would also mean there are actually 40K PLAYERS in CFC, and the answer is that there isnt. I would like to see all players multiboxing all their alts for both these things. It would be killmail farming heaven for everyone else, unless they all have 4-10 monitors each.


What? Multi boxing can be done on 1 screen with various programs.


In addition I would have to point out that nowadays screens are cheap. Be it then using a single 4k screen (8 megapixels, eve minimum resolution is 0.79 megapixels at 1024x768 so max 10 client without overlapping) or multiple 1080p screens (ok for 2 clients with minimal overalp at 1024x1080 resolution or 1080x960 if in portrait).

With minimum settings EVE is very conservative with resources. A 6 year old half decent PC can run 10 clients without major issues with main limitation being the GFX memory (you want about 250 MB per client) (AMD 1050, 16 GB RAM, AMD 7870 2 GB GFX card). If running more than 2-3 clients I would strongly suggest putting EVE on a SSD - it seems to help with session change times.


I am one of those guys that have way too many accounts and 2 displays (used a laptop earlier for 3rd client open). Running multiple accounts isnt that easy really, and though it has seemed a lot of cfc players run ISBoxer thats not true for the majority of them.

My PC from 2011 runs all my clients nicely on low settings but player input wont be effective across much more than 2-3. Also, we are men who according to lore dont multitask well Blink
Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3316 - 2015-03-07 09:43:32 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:


CFCAUTZAlliance just doesn't have the right ring to it


That one made me chuckle.

Happy birthday Fawlty!
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#3317 - 2015-03-07 09:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: VolatileVoid
Added install and upkeep cost to the value estimation of owning a null system to my previous thread.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5557889#post5557889

Edit: As this system goes live (possibly with modifications) we have to add a new requirement to corp recruiting:
Are you able to be online for 4h each day? No=no nullsec corp invite.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#3318 - 2015-03-07 10:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
I was wondering for some time how long people would take to realise just how important AU TZ players would become, I can play from 06:40 to 16:40 during the week if I want to without any interference, after 16:40 its subject to wife aggro and sleep, but I was expecting to have a lot of fun when this comes out, I was expecting to become rather valuable, this is why Mercs as a profession could take off.

For Mike in particular to speak to Dev's.

I know there is a AFK cloaking thread and if people want to see my views look at my BIO, but post there not here. But if CCP removes local they should also remove all that other free intel on the map and on Dotlan, if people think otherwise hypocrite is a word that comes to mind. If I am ratting in a system, why should that intel be available to people who can just click on a map, why should intel of people in system be freely available to people checking a map. This requires a radical change just as much as sov does, make space big again CCP, this will help in getting people into 0.0 and with a more local feeling to it.


I am looking forward to the sov changes, but there are some other changes needed too.

EDIT: PS Fawlty7's birthday is actually around this time, so happy birthday Fawlty7

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3319 - 2015-03-07 10:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Blackfangg wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Blackfangg wrote:
....
BlackFangg


"Only a handful of these systems are going to be maxed out, many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds."

" So let's say a gang decides to come with inties in your worst TZ - picking at your sov structures."

"now let's count in the hostiles return with a ceptor gang or a WH group is trying to get some kills out of you - you're all spread out trying to cover as many nodes as possible."

"So even with a more than serious attempt to actually take your sov, you need to spend most of your prime time to cover this. Every goddamn time.Plus you're putting a reasonable amount of ISKs at risk in stations that can be flipped (even faster now and with the risk of enemies playing station games and bubbling the hell out if it), multiple shiptypes that need to be stored etc."

"Then I'd rather live in a WH and pick my own fights or drop an alt in FW in lowsec"

"Numbers are still the primary source of power, grinding will be even more part of the 0.0 life - now we just exchanged HP grinding for mere time spent activating a high slot module. The primary reason for alliances to fold is burn out and low morale, especially when all you need to do is grind all day. I don't think it should be encouraging to do this, but rather promote smaller 0.0 entities that don't need backup of their partners"

"So many decent proposals were made the past weeks, just incorporate them into this."


Ok you seem very intelligent and that makes me happy, I wish people were reading this better and thinking more rationally like you, me, and the rare other few. But i have a few questions/thoughts on your opinion.

#1: If a system is only high index from a "Fast Grind" and that alone, then it probably isnt lived in, and shouldn't be yours.(potentially didnt understand what you meant here)

#2: Ok now im kinda wondering if you actually read it as well....They cant pick at your structure in your worst TZ....Only in the 4 hours you choose. And if you own 25 systems and live in them all, then you should be able to get 3-6 people in RLM Cerb/Tengu and Hyena/Lokis/Intys of your own online for atleast 4 hours, and if you dont have those that, then you dont own 25 systems.

#3 If they have managed to reinforce 25 systems then you deserve to lose it, 40mins AFTER the warning that EVERYONE gets and no one has shown up? Then ya, shouldnt be yours. Remember: This should be during your 4 hours that you have the most people online. If you dont have enough people to cover the systems then you dont need them.

#4: Ok if you live in null, and your alliance owns systems, you should have PLENTY of ships. I have my ships at my required staging system when on deployments of course, but I keep 10 of every fleet fit frig, 5 of every cruiser, 2 of each BC, and 2 of each BS in my HOME station (Plus atleast 4 of every T2/T3 I can fly, and ammo for everything). In case someday we get attacked en mass. I Literally could live off the stuff in my home station for, weeks if not months of fighting. And I have plenty of ores/mins/salvage to make more if I need them. So if you dont have enough ships...well...rat/mine more. Station flipping thing, at least now you actually have the chance to get stuff out of a lost station (Looking at you Solar and N3) And about the serious attempt. Of course you have to defend you space if someone wants it!!! THATS THE POINT. And if you cant get people to play during your MOST ACTIVE TIME then again, you should lose it.

#5 Well then go, plenty of us left here that will kill your rats, but having an Alt in FW or a WH isnt a bad idea, I have one, its for when I get bored of the empire and just want to hunt lowsec/WHs.

#6 But this isnt possible, if you have 100 people in your corp, and a alliance of 15000 decided they want your space, then its not gonna be yours anymore. They cant make it that way without ruining the game. Because if i couldn't bring a fleet of 1000 with a mix of Supers/Caps/BS/Cruisers/Frigates and beat your 100man alliance flying Tengus, then I'd leave this game because it would be pointless. Whats the point of having a corp at all if you can't have power/safety in numbers? If numbers were ever made to not matter, then EVE would become that themepark MMO everyone talks about.

#7 This is agree with, I think there are things that could be changed, such as maybe a 100km T2 ELink or degrading Strat Index. But I don't think this is a bad first step towards a better EVE, without millions on HP between me and that R-64 over there. Stuffs gonna get crazy after the patch but I believe a year or two from now we will look back and be like "What was I so mad about" Go back and look at how people said splitting Destroyers/Battlecruisers and everything into Racial Destroyer/BC was going to ruin the game and make it too hard to fly things. Or when they nerfed speeds. Or even WH space (Ya a lot of people thought it was dumb, go read the old posts.) I think CCP really should look hard at player opinions, but also there are so many people to please in this game. Its impossible to make them all happy.

-BlackFangg

Wrote a descriptive response to this but decided to go with - Look at the sov map, start packing now as I'd hate to see your little stockpile of ships lost over a few days to the bubblecamps on the undock.

Schluffi Schluffelsen - Unfortunately CCP is again following popular gaming trends with the further introduction of "mini games", which work well in some games but really have no place in sov nul. The mini game aspect based on a 4 hours window is turning eve into a job, if you hold sov you don't get to run anoms or mine or go on a small roam because for 4 hours everyday you need to be ready to defend your sov.
Sounds really exciting doesn't it?
No downsides to committing 4 hours a day, 28 hours per week to play a game.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
flakeys
Doomheim
#3320 - 2015-03-07 10:48:35 UTC
Kumar WhiteCastle wrote:
Why is the one and only CSM discussing nullsec and sovereignty in the forums a hisec CSM known to dislike nullsec and all those that live there? Azariah is almost certainly trolling the thread.



Why shouldn't he ?If high-sec get's a change in mining , loot drop , awoxing , etc i see a crapload of nullsec guys post in it how they feel the change is good/bad.
Yet when we are discussing a change in null-sec all of a sudden anyone from an npc corp or who lives in high-sec/wormhole/low-sec should 'shut up as they do not know what is good or bad for null-sec'.And yes he is a CSM member but your comment is also given a hundred times in this thread to any of the above mentioned players.

And yes i know a lot of null-sec guys also hang out in high-sec but it seems to be forgotten that a LOT of the people who currently reside in high-sec/low-sec/wormholes also have a decent amount of null-sec experience.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.