Player Features and Ideas Discussion

52 pages in and it all boils down to this:

Combat Recons with D-scan immunity are still less of a threat than cloaky T3's in all but FW plexes specifically because of the block on cloaking in them. Everywhere else, in every area of space, the cloaky T3 is more dangerous to the solo player. So yes, for FW players this will hurt a bit, mostly the solo guys. For everybody else there is still a greater risk than what is being introduced in Proteus.

As a solo player myself, I empathize, but you have to understand that game balance can't be focused on solo play. Especially in FacWar, where you are specifically trying to achieve a goal alongside other players, whether you choose to coordinate with them or not. Maybe they will play with the ship limitations in sites because of this, who knows. If you are solo then I'd recommend finding a Combat Recon that serves your purposes and plex in that. Fit creatively and watch your overview and you likely will never get caught, even by Lachesis's. Yes, I'm saying to fit Warp Core Stabs on your recon, that Lachesis isn't going to have unlimited points, and if they fit scrams their range is even shorter.

At that point just be happy that cloaking isn't allowed in FW plexes, because when that T3 decloaks he's gonna hit you with a bump and he's gonna have the DPS and tank to ruin your day without ruining his own.

TL;DR: Plexes are still safer than everywhere else, cloaky bumping T3's hurt.

Solution:
Every time you get killed and a Combat Recon is involved, like say in FW, WH or solo, submit a bug ticket to CCP about key game-play being completely broken and in need of a fix. Refusing to pay for a broken game is also an option.

To those arguing that Cov-Ops isn't visible on D-Scan either: Cov-Ops ships can be seen on D-Scan if you just bother to pay attention. Reason: They have to uncloak and recloak at certain times, and even if you fail to catch them when they enter or leave a system, they will still have other tell-tale signs, like, say:

"Hm, who does those probes belong to, anyone?"
"Well, son, it's probably that cloaky who safe-logs off in our hole."

This makes it possible to know whether a cloaky is in your system, regardless of if you spotted him on D-Scan the first time. Additionally cloaked ships suffer certain drawbacks, and if they're really unlucky they may be decloaked by other ships, or by venturing to close to things floating about in space. Not so with a non-D-scannable Combat Recon.

In fact, mastering D-Scan is a real-life skill (as opposed to a numbered level in an in-game skillbook). However having to put out combat probes at regular intervals, or absolutely needing to multi-box a dedicated alt just for that one thing; it's just bad game design, man. Popping combat probes does not require real life skill unless you're trying to stay hidden. Absolutely having to do it just to survive in certain areas just adds tedium to the game, and not mastery like D-Scan does.

Of course I'd love to fly one of these recon ships. Hell, if it's truly put in, I guess I'm just going to have to do it. Will I enjoy killing in it? Certainly. I've always wanted to play God, so I guess this is my chance. (Might want to make a quick buck trading them too, cuz these sucker will only go up in price now.) Will it be a completely OP and unfair advantage? Most decidedly! Will it be worth anybodys money? Certainly not. If it truly is as bad as it sounds, it completely breaks the game.

Here's a tac I'd use to hunt hackers and small plex runners:
1. You'll need a minimum of two guys. A dude in a Cloaky. A dude in a Combat Recon.
2. The Cloaky will slow boat close to the target.
3. Then the Combat Recon will warp in.
4. Profit! There's no way to notice it when it warps in, so it'll be like swatting a blind fly.

Three ways out of this (or make it a more livable feature): Give the Combat Recon a significant nerf when using this ability, make it into a special module that nerf other abilities just like the Cov-Ops Cloak does, or just get rid of this completely OP and game breaking ability all together.

I like this post. Good ideas by someone that knows their stuff too.

2/10

Small gang and solo roaming is about to get a lot more tedious and risk averse. Facwar (and everywhere really) is going to be full of noobship/inty/covops alts warping to check every plex and every gate or celestial to check for recons and warping into every medium before anybody considers entering with actual PvP ships. The game already favors taking OGB and alt accounts just to set up fights to create content with a small gang. Players who can't be asked to accommodate these changes and bring alt accounts currently make do by using DSCAN and common sense are going to be forced out. These players also represent a large portion of content generators and will be missed.

This change is going to be detrimental to any newer pilots (experience or time in game) trying to get their feet wet into small scale pvp. It is going to set the bar of entry to pvp even higher. The only counterplay is having extra sets of eyes everywhere. Being vigilant with DSCAN doesn't count for anything in regards to these new ships. Fix DSCAN and address the issues with these hulls players are actually concerned about (there are some good quality of life changes this time but far too much broken and unnecessary changes as well) before taking the lazy/sloppy route making big gamebreaking changes to make it look like something is being done.

There will be hordes of unscannable gank fleets with little counterplay ready to end player gaming sessions with them being neuted, damped, jammed, webbed, painted, scrammed and tracking disrupted. This is going to be like the inty blobs after the added interdiction nullified bonus but with actual combat ships that you can't see coming unless you have eyes on grid with EHP better than HACs.

At least with cloaky recons there is a delay which balances out the fact that force multiplying ships can suddenly appear out of thin air. They already fill the role of ganking/camping/stalking. Keep the covop recons in that role and make the other recons viable for larger scale conflict like people are asking for. It still sucks for small gang because of how strong recons already are (a lot of us intentionally don't comp them in gang because they scare away fights and remove content for us) but a lot of gameplay styles would benefit from that change. Recons already get HAC EHP because they have more slots to dedicate to tank (for shield shield).

I like reducing cap for warp but increasing the cap is a bit much and removes too much counterplay from already really strong ships. They are already hard to jam/damp (unlike T3 recons) and have the ability to force multiply from great range.

This power creep really needs to be checked. I know a lot of people are already planning to abuse this not in celebration but in protest and to display how gamebreaking it is.

Things were on a good track for a while in regards to getting a lot of interest back in the game from a lot of former and current small gang types but these changes validate their leaving and are discouraging them from playing.

There's NOTHING wrong with things being hard for new players, and challenging for the rest of us. Honestly, of all the repercussions from this change that I anticipate, increased challenge is greatly welcomed.

The power creep comment is however a good point, it really seems that when Fozzie Rise uses the term "balancing" they really tend to err on the side of OP. I know that WoW developers do the same thing, and promise to aggressively use the nerf bat over the next several cycles...which they fail at..miserably. However the realization that EVE devs appear to try to be keeping up with the WoW devs fills me with a bit of dread. What's next, a new fifth race? Pandari warriors with their faction Monastic Battlecruisers?

If the past is an indicator, this will initially benefit large fleet corps like Hard Knocks who have very aggressive fleet theory crafters... then progressive lowsec pirates like Missy Loreli who will inevitably find remarkable ways to turn this into a mind numbingly effective spiderweb tool, then eventually work its way to Null Sec alliances who'll decide it's too much effort and just continue dieing horribly at the end of pipebombs.

The beauty of these short cycle releases is that in 4-6 weeks this will all be forgotten in the emo rage storm over the next product of the Fozzie Rise experiment. Don't forget, these forum wars also fit into the 'interaction' category that the current developers crave from us!

---

Yay, we're all winning.... just remember, in EvE you can be Elite, and you can be Dangerous, but to be both, you have to go somewhere else!

Recons should also never appear in local.

For nullsec and for lowsec.... death to local list, to be honest, it provides no real game value anywhere other than showing off our cool avatar....head.

As a wormhole resident, I approve this change of Combat Recons!

5 Rooks, please...

*ambush artist signing off*

About half of eve that read this just jizzed there self the other half ****

i love it they been in need of some love for a long time now


just wondering and have been for a good while how come on T2 ships it has a bonus per skill level for that class ship like 5 % per frig level lets say when you have to have level 5 to even fly the ship how come not just 25 % ?

Some more thoughts from a solo/smallscale fw perspective:

I see a lot of "You are just crying because all you fw folks want to do is farm. This will counter that".
Contrary to what people have been saying here I am not too worried about potentialy getting ganked in medium plexes.

I am more afraid that this could actually increase farming.

I would be completely fine with something like this:

1. I see a potential target in a medium plex. I take the fight and you have a recon there. I probably get exploded.
2. Similarly, I take a fight and you warp in your recon. Granted, I lose the short opportunity to dscan it using the gate. But in such a baiting situation I'm probably under full tackle and committed anyway.

After that, I'll give you a gf and move on.

Just like with a Falcon alt sitting cloaked off the 30km decloak range inside the plex or coming in mid-fight, I now have a lossmail with a lot of intel I can use for future engagements at the cost of my ship. I can then share this intel with my corp/alliance/militia and then people can adapt to this information. There's not much difference between cov ops and combat recon alts in that regard.

If you are running solo, fitting for combat scanner probes is not viable for most fits and hulls. You could bring one in your cargo and refit at a friendly station or mobile depot but that's all time I would not take of my roam for a "could be maybe" scenario. For me personally, I'd rather take a few punches, gather that intel about you and keep the pace up.

Also some things to consider:

• If you are roaming without a scout you are much more likely to run into a stray gatecamp than getting Recon'd in a random plex.
• As large plexes can be warped to directly and thus essentialy have a 200km diameter warp in region I see no problem here. You could just as well be ganked by cloaked support.
• The main source for a gank opportunity, the medium plex, must be opened for someone to be inside. That fact plus local should give you some idea about potential danger.

But what I am actually a little worried about is that you could then actively farm these plexes undetected, a symptom that was addressed through the 30km decloak. Before the cloak changes, the amount of farming was insane. If you give people an easy way to make money like that they will do it anyway they can. Maybe even if that means using a stabbed combat recon. For the sake of argument, let's also say that the combat recon pilot running tons of plexes is not stabbed. Having the benefit of stealth and combat ability alone is not a problem, but adding to that the capability of earning heaps of ISK is a bit much.

In my oppinion, if you are sitting in a plex running the timer and making a butt-load of cash farming these sites, you should be a visible target. Even before, when you could cloak inside the timer range, that meant it would stop running it.

A counter to this thought would be the limitation to mediums and larges, which is good. Also, training a farming alt just for a stabbed combat recon is skill intensive. Especially compared to a cloaky t1 frig you could farm in before.

So, from an fw point of view, I'd say let these changes roll in and keep an open eye for changing metas.

o7