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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Commentus Nolen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1081 - 2014-12-19 23:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Commentus Nolen
Now yes I am a new player but I just don't see why Recon ships should be used for anything other then
reconnaissance.

"Reconnaissance is the activity of obtaining military information about a place by sending soldiers or planes there, or by the use of satellites. "

"Reconnaissance is the military term for exploring beyond the area occupied by friendly forces to gain vital information about enemy forces or features of the environment for later analysis and/or dissemination."

Recon ships should not be viable combat ships. They should be fitted for speed, stealth, defensive ECM and scanning or probing. They should also be able to be cloaked while moving and scanning (while using a lot of fuel or cap) to allow them to get the intel and then get out or be a point for a fleet to warp to. You may even allow them to not show up in local but they should only be allowed to have short range defensive weapons and be easy to kill if they engage or are caught.

Right now this just sounds like they will be way overpowered. Just what is the counter to this weapon system.

But having gangs of these ships used for ship against ship pvp just seems wrong.

Edit: I feel they should also be allowed to scan, hunt, or probe cloaked ships including other recon ships. In other words they should also be a counter to cloaking.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1082 - 2014-12-19 23:32:40 UTC
Caoni Mar wrote:
I am just glad that the Huginn and Lachesis are losing the split weapon systems.

Hear hear
Niskin
League of the Lost
#1083 - 2014-12-19 23:34:04 UTC
Ehud Gera wrote:
For everyone who says "This will be awesome for Wormholes"

You are the PVP WH'er who wants to gank (and dont get me wrong, i'm a pvp nut as well) but here's your problem:

Your targets are going to disappear. Any kind of solo or small gang operation just became so risky that its not even worth trying to do anoms in WH's.

The only sites that will be done in WH's will be Signatures because then at least pilots can dscan for probes.

CCP if you're going to make these ships not D-Scannable then please replace all WH Anoms with Signatures so that pilots can at least rely on DSCAN to see probes if not the actual combat recons.

Otherwise RIP WH anom farming for all except the larger(est) groups



I'll still be running sites, and possibly doing PvP solo in one of the new recons, Combat or Force. I think they all will be good post-revamp. Better than trying to do solo wormhole pvp with anything other than a T3 at the moment.

I am cool with anoms being switched to signatures though, at least some of them anyway.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#1084 - 2014-12-19 23:36:37 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
sentinel neut power:
- 108GJ every 6s *3 at 31.5km
- equals 18GJ per second per neut
- 54GJ/s total

new pilgrim:
- 180GJ every 12s *3 at 37.8km
- equals 15GJ per second per neut
- 45GJ/s total

curse:
- 360GJ every 6s *5 at 37.6km
- equals 30GJ per second per neut
-150GJ/s total


the pilgrim needs a little more love IMO. Maybe a 10% neut power bonus?


how about nerfing the sentinel instead? then pilgrim wouldn't look like it's out of line, and also it would fix the sentinel.

would be a different topic. the question is if the new pilgrim is good enough to do the job in the current meta.


your suggestion is based on the sentinel not being overpowered


i used it for comparison since i know the sentinel very well and it doesn't matter if its overpowered or not if we talk about a pilgrim. All i said it should have at least the neut power of the current sentinel. Doesn't matter if it gets nerfed or not which is entirely offtopic.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Aeron Kinkade
Kade Holdings
#1085 - 2014-12-19 23:39:05 UTC
Oh FFS CCP! Did you drink an extra dose of bong water when you thought about this? Recons having dscan immunity AND getting stat buffs! Absolutely obsurd! There is already a major issue with AFK cloakers that just sit and camp a system; now you want to just add to that????

So let's see here so far CCP

In the last patch you screwed jump bridges, cyno's, etc, and any other kind of travel other than gate to gate. And now you want to go and make it that much easier for someone to afk camp.... how nice.... What else you got for 2015? Do you just plan on destroying NULL and Low Sec all together by the end of 2015. If so, please let me know so I can find something else to invest my time and money in.

Good day CCP
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#1086 - 2014-12-19 23:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:


CCP - have you REALLY considered how this is going to affect WH play?

I know this is an alt-heavy environment (or teamwork-heavy), but I worry this will make combat recons the new HAC, as they have pretty good 'damage evasion' and you're buffing their resists to HAC levels......

just a concern

also - what is the point to using a force recon now? since the main bonus of the cloak is nullified by the combat recon's role bonus?


Purpose of Force Recon is the same as Marine Force Recon. Reconnaissance of the enemy while being as close to the enemy and remaining hidden.

In EVE, that means arriving on grid, and being on grid undetected. Combat Recon means staying undected while off grid and ready to move on grid when needed. Which is why, Force Recon ships have the covert ops cloaking bonus and now Combat Recon will have the bonus toward being offgrid undetected.

I think people forget what Recon even means. Whether or not people use them for that purpose, as people prefer to use covert ops for scouting, but Recon is meant to do the same and have the survivability to defend itself and/or engage a threat.

One of the modos of Recon Marines is Swift, Silent, Deadly.
Loan--Wolf
Sub Par.
#1087 - 2014-12-19 23:44:35 UTC
i love all the tears this is causing this change is not as bad as some of you are trying to make it sound like. so you have to run a combat scanner instead of d you should be doing that any way in a wh larger than a c1 . and if your in null running sights and some one new shows up you should be running any way
Ehud Gera
Equitable Affront
#1088 - 2014-12-19 23:47:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
[quote]

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


Are you talking about more fights, or more frustration? I don't want to see more fights just for the sake of more ships blown up on zkillboard, I want GOOD FIGHTS.

Having DSCAN be unusable in the case of recons (ECM, and EWAR in general already being a cause of frustration to many solo and small gang pilots) is rash. If you want more fights give us more content that throws pilots after the same goals in a competitive nature.

You're upping the Gankability factor, not the Gudfight factor. I see this as a negative. "Moar content" isn't the answer CCP Rise. More Good Content is. Please look for other opportunities to increase content besides arbitrary bonus changes on hulls.

More complexity in combat pve that requires the attention of pilots off their dscan comes to mind. Try that first?
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1089 - 2014-12-19 23:49:36 UTC
All changes good. Great even. Especially the capacitor changes. How you are supposed to "recon" if you can't even do full system warps I don't know.

Except the not appearing on d-scan. Ugh Is bad idea imo.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1090 - 2014-12-19 23:53:38 UTC
rise please consider nerfing the web range down on minnie recons, maybe 50%
and reduce the point ranges on gal recons maybe 15%

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Lvzbel Ixtab
Dark Venture Corporation
#1091 - 2014-12-20 00:02:31 UTC
Loan--Wolf wrote:
i love all the tears this is causing this change is not as bad as some of you are trying to make it sound like. so you have to run a combat scanner instead of d you should be doing that any way in a wh larger than a c1 . and if your in null running sights and some one new shows up you should be running any way



Perfect example of someone who is not helping and doesn't understand the difference between D-scan and Combat Probes and that doesn't understand the impact this will have in other places other than WH space and 0.0
Loan--Wolf
Sub Par.
#1092 - 2014-12-20 00:27:57 UTC
Lvzbel Ixtab wrote:
Loan--Wolf wrote:
i love all the tears this is causing this change is not as bad as some of you are trying to make it sound like. so you have to run a combat scanner instead of d you should be doing that any way in a wh larger than a c1 . and if your in null running sights and some one new shows up you should be running any way



Perfect example of someone who is not helping and doesn't understand the difference between D-scan and Combat Probes and that doesn't understand the impact this will have in other places other than WH space and 0.0

i understand dscan i use it daily in whs and null and low i just am not crying because its a inconvenient
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#1093 - 2014-12-20 00:47:56 UTC
CCP Rise, I would love a straight answer - the guys living in WH's that of course live by D-scan; what exactly do you expect them to do now (besides die in a ball of fire?)

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Dani Maulerant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1094 - 2014-12-20 00:58:24 UTC
This really won't cause more fights, just more ganks, but then the actual good fights will be fewer and farther between as having to always combat probe (which alone is an issue on several levels from solo needing yet more alts, to who's-going-to-have-probing-duty-in-fleet?) each FW plex, sig, anomaly, etc will really slow pace down more than anything.

And then using third party information like checking all KB's of all pilots in a lowsec system, each new jump, is just not reasonable, which as someone said, in lowsec, neutrals and such are just daily life to us, unlike null where one non-blue in system and word spreads through the cluster.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1095 - 2014-12-20 01:01:54 UTC
Dscan immunity is exciting and I don't think it's too strong.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1096 - 2014-12-20 01:24:06 UTC
Caoni Mar wrote:
I'm fairly happy with the changes except for the huginn getting a turret bonus and not a missile bonus. However, it is understandable considering its painting and web bonus and combined with the fact that it is getting the resist increase as well might make it too strong.

I am just glad that the Huginn and Lachesis are losing the split weapon systems.


Rapier has 10% missile damage. Even with only 3 launchers, it does comparable dps as bellicose with RLML. So not only will it provide gang web support, it'll obliterate frigs.


Huginn REALLY needs a PG grid buff to make arty viable, i think 4 720s will use 90% of its grid, if not over 100%. Thats before tank, mwd. So..yea, prob means 720s will be impossible without 2-3 fitting mods. 650s may work okish.. but youll probably only do high 200s for dps. Which sucks compared to my split weapon huginn (500dps with arty and rlml).
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#1097 - 2014-12-20 01:46:29 UTC
Ehud Gera wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
[quote]

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


Are you talking about more fights, or more frustration? I don't want to see more fights just for the sake of more ships blown up on zkillboard, I want GOOD FIGHTS.

Having DSCAN be unusable in the case of recons (ECM, and EWAR in general already being a cause of frustration to many solo and small gang pilots) is rash. If you want more fights give us more content that throws pilots after the same goals in a competitive nature.

You're upping the Gankability factor, not the Gudfight factor. I see this as a negative. "Moar content" isn't the answer CCP Rise. More Good Content is. Please look for other opportunities to increase content besides arbitrary bonus changes on hulls.

More complexity in combat pve that requires the attention of pilots off their dscan comes to mind. Try that first?


this
Sobic
The Envoys
Forsaken Empire.
#1098 - 2014-12-20 01:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobic
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Seriously Rise (where's Fozzie in all of this?), talk us through this gameplay from a skillful player's perspective:

You're solo in lowsec.

That's it, that's all there is to the scenario.

P.S. There could be a linked lachesis + huginn on every grid. That you can't dscan.

What do you do, anywhere? How do you solo in this world? When do you not die on landing on any & every grid, on jumping every gate, without any way to get ingame intel on what awaits? Only fly frigs that can warp in a couple of seconds tops?


Its questions like these that I don't see RISE actually answering. Because the answer won't support his idea.

You can expand it to gangs entering say... BRAVE space. Our gang of 20 is almost always outnumbered. So we have to use Dscan a lot to have a damn chance against the blob. So now I'll just pass on roaming period as they'll have an unknown number of combat recons ready to pounce at any given moment. You do realize that a SINGLE combat recon can turn a fight?!?!?

I foresee ENTIRE FLEETS of just combat recons. This isn't hard to foresee that you're making the game a frustrating mess just so you can have your latest gimmick passive that makes you feel like your actually earning your dev paycheck.

PS, I don't FW or WH or run anoms. People who keep accusing detractors as only being whiny carebears are short sited.
Shivanthar
#1099 - 2014-12-20 01:47:59 UTC
I like these changes. Sounds like solo missioners also have to adapt some stuff.
It now requires wise watching and even a probing wingman in order to do missions in low/null.
For all-solo players (single char-wants to be alone toons) it is now a no-go to low level5's with marauders.
Other than that, really cool pvp stuff, I might dip my toe in sometime ^.^

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1100 - 2014-12-20 01:49:52 UTC
The more i think about it, the more i believe that the rapier made out better than the huginn. Double web with rlml using furies will be good for 320-385dps. Should be able to faceroll most kiters. Has cloak OR optional high (its got HAC lvl tank) for neut/nos.

The huginn though...Once again, a minny ship that would be good with artillery, cant fit the damned things. Rise, please consider giving huginn more PG, or reduce fitting for medium arty.

Does ac huginn sound like a good idea? Should i go get into brawling range with my 40km web to actually do damage? Yea.. its a recon i know. But it does say combat, so i would hope it would be semi competent in that department.

Course with new hac resists..maybe huginn will be long awaited t2 minny brawler? Guess we will have to see. Will test on SiSi.