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Dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, One Module At A Time

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Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#381 - 2014-09-30 23:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. Thanks for the feedback so far.

We're doing some discussion internally about the concerns some people have expressed about the naming.
I will say that we absolutely reject any argument that attempts to claim that obscure name memorization should somehow be a requirement to play EVE. It's not "dumbing down the game" to make systems more easily understandable.
However some of the concerns about the lore and flavour have merit and we're talking about what we might change to better address those concerns. Nothing related to this will be changing for Oceanus, but everything can be iterated upon.

Also, if you've read the patch notes or dev blog today you'll have seen that we made an adjustment to the Restrained Cap Flux Coil stats. We had some wires crossed internally and thanks to your feedback we've cleared up the erroneous stats. The Restrained Cap Flux Coil will indeed have reduced drawback instead of increased drawback. It will have a capacitor pool penalty of -10% and a recharge speed bonus of 28%.

Thanks.


This could be fixed in the way that every module has a "Part name", or a sort of "complex manufacturer name", which is simplified for easy discussion between capsuleers, into the names you have proposed. So, the Experimental 10mn Microwarpdrive could be referred to by it's manufacturer as the Y-T8 Hydrocarbon Overcharged 10MN Microwarpdrive. This could be a field similar to the item name, simply the "part name". This makes sense in terms of lore, because the manufacturers of the part probably would not call their part a "Upgraded 10mn Microwarpdrive". If they engineered an upgraded part, they would likely describe the type of upgrade they did in the part name. These part names, typically being complex, would be simplified in conversation between consumers. (Like the brand name or generic name of medecine)

Then, to satisfy people, you could search the market based on part name as well as standard name. Make this part name prominent in the item description. This sort of thing (in my opinion) adds to deepness of lore in the game.

If you were really nice, you could specify in the items panel to view part names for modules rather than standard names...

In that respect, bring back Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive. That was the best name...

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#382 - 2014-10-01 01:37:58 UTC
Ponder Yonder wrote:
Cristl wrote:
Hawkin Shadowblade wrote:
As much as I do actually like the direction of the changes, you need to seriously reconsider the naming dynamic you have adopted; it's absolutely horrid in that it is reminiscent of the naming policy of other traditional MMOs:
Leather Jerkin of the Monkey?
Okay, it has an agility bonus...
Yes, this is a nice way to show the role of an item at a glance. The problem is it kills immersion in a game like EVE. There is a level of immersion involved with shopping for outfitting your ship. Buying a set of XM-2300 Missile Launchers fits with the atmosphere and general "a world you could live in" vibe you guys have been going for. By giving them role based names, I instantly had WoW flashbacks, and the names sound pretty lame, I'll be honest:
An ample Railgun?
A Scoped Railgun?
A SCOPED Railgun!?
Are you implying any other variation of Railgun is without scope? Again, you should really reconsider this renaming policy. It is not the direction you should be looking.


I'd like to second this. I'm worried that someone at CCP has been told to make the names less varied ("easier") because that will help retain new players. Quite the reverse: the fact you needed to look up your equipment made Eve feel like a real, immersive new universe and was originally part of the attraction for me. Don't throw that away.

Leather Jerkin of the Monkey?. Perfect.


CCP, Please retain some of immersive elements. Call it a Gaussian Scoped Railgun, or an XT-3200 Ample Launcher, or whatever. The quirks make Eve interesting.

Look at that we could have it both ways. Use the new Key words to describe the meaning and help market searches while keeping some interesting flavor. You could even bring back the cool names from back in the day like Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrives, just add in the rather useful and descriptive 10MN into it and maybe keep the sorta descriptive experimental. Thus 'Experimental Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon 10MN Microwarpdrive'

I already want one of those to put on my Drake!
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#383 - 2014-10-01 01:38:50 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. Thanks for the feedback so far.

We're doing some discussion internally about the concerns some people have expressed about the naming.
I will say that we absolutely reject any argument that attempts to claim that obscure name memorization should somehow be a requirement to play EVE. It's not "dumbing down the game" to make systems more easily understandable.
However some of the concerns about the lore and flavour have merit and we're talking about what we might change to better address those concerns. Nothing related to this will be changing for Oceanus, but everything can be iterated upon.

Also, if you've read the patch notes or dev blog today you'll have seen that we made an adjustment to the Restrained Cap Flux Coil stats. We had some wires crossed internally and thanks to your feedback we've cleared up the erroneous stats. The Restrained Cap Flux Coil will indeed have reduced drawback instead of increased drawback. It will have a capacitor pool penalty of -10% and a recharge speed bonus of 28%.

Thanks.


This could be fixed in the way that every module has a "Part name", or a sort of "complex manufacturer name", which is simplified for easy discussion between capsuleers, into the names you have proposed. So, the Experimental 10mn Microwarpdrive could be referred to by it's manufacturer as the Y-T8 Hydrocarbon Overcharged 10MN Microwarpdrive. This could be a field similar to the item name, simply the "part name". This makes sense in terms of lore, because the manufacturers of the part probably would not call their part a "Upgraded 10mn Microwarpdrive". If they engineered an upgraded part, they would likely describe the type of upgrade they did in the part name. These part names, typically being complex, would be simplified in conversation between consumers. (Like the brand name or generic name of medecine)

Then, to satisfy people, you could search the market based on part name as well as standard name. Make this part name prominent in the item description. This sort of thing (in my opinion) adds to deepness of lore in the game.

If you were really nice, you could specify in the items panel to view part names for modules rather than standard names...

In that respect, bring back Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive. That was the best name...


Great Minds think alike!
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#384 - 2014-10-01 02:00:43 UTC
I want friggin Widdowmaker Missiles back too!!!!
And Juggernaut Torps and Gremlin Rockets and Doom torpedoes for my Phoenix!!!

Now I admit you can't tell exactly what type of damage the missile will do so you could add a descriptive damage type to the name such as Widdowmaker Thermal/Thermic Heavy Missiles. Although, the friggin picture is red so thats kind of a giveaway too.
DOOM EM Citadel Torpedo is way cooler than Mjolnir.
Ok Mjolnir is pretty cool too?
But couldn't it be considered kinetic damage with the smashing and all by it's namesake hammer.
Anyways some flavor to the item names or hell even more flavor text couldn't hurt.
It's a friggin space game played by people who might appreciate random sci-fi trivia added in.
It's not WOW...if we wanted to play WOW we would go play WOW...since we don't want to play WOW don't turn EVE into WOW
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#385 - 2014-10-01 04:06:16 UTC
Well, in that instance I would go for "Y-T8 Hydrocarbon Overcharged 10MN Microwarpdrive"

That way anyone looking for "10MN micro" will be able to find it. Of course, a proper search mechanism would allow searching for "MWD" and "cruiser", but I'll just sit back and arm-chair program, wondering why the numpties at CCP haven't done this yet, paying no attention to the fact that I've failed to do the same kind of thing in the application I've spent my last five years maintaining Lol

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#386 - 2014-10-01 04:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Krystyn wrote:
I want friggin Widdowmaker Missiles back too!!!!
And Juggernaut Torps and Gremlin Rockets and Doom torpedoes for my Phoenix!!!


Yup.

Search [ kind:missile size:medium damage:thermal ]


There's your discoverability and accessibility and openness to new players, CCP.

Even better, allow Show Info -> Attributes -> Charge Type to be right-clickable, opening the appropriate group in the Market window. Heck, allow the role icons in the Traits tab to do the same thing: click the "tackle" icon for the Crow and it opens up the market groups for scrams and disruptors. There could be an intermediate stage where you warn the player that you're about to open the Market (e.g: right-click -> Show Market Details…).

No more searching, just finding.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
#387 - 2014-10-01 05:56:09 UTC
Ok first everyone lets calm down and take a breather, both on our side and CCP's side. We can get through this as friends and find a balance we can both agree on.


From what i can gather CCP wants to make it easier for new players to fit ships and and understand the game



Players want immersion and the cool names we grew up with because hey those names made the game.



Balance -


As one player said earlier (too lazy to find it) Rather than changing the names, let's look at the prefixes and suffixes.

so like in the light missile launchers

Upgraded - UG UG-'limos' light missile launcher.
Compact - CMP CMP-'malkulth' light missile launcher.
Ample - AMP AMP-'xt-2000' light missile launcher
scope - SCP SCP-'arbalest' light missile launcher.

All 4 basic metas with easy to understand prefixes, and retains the immersion of the old names we love.

Now in the description window, text that says (unabbreviated prefix ) + module name could appear if people really want the full info.


Anyway guys, cut the sarcasm let's be constructive. If we can reach an agreement together when we can all be happy.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2014-10-01 08:41:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
I think the guys at CCP need to go and play a game of World of Tanks or Battlefield or something and see that weapons and equipment never has a stupid name like "Ample".

An L2A1 Assault Rifle with an extended magazine fitted wouldn't be called an Ample Assault Rifle.

CCP. We are not children. We're almost exclusively adults. I play EvE because it is a mature MMO. I even enjoy making the kids who play EvE cry by blowing up their **** because they were too imature and impatient to learn about the game mechanics and modules in order to best utilise them.

I would far prefer to have to learn stuff than to simply just "know it". This is one of the crux of this new naming system.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#389 - 2014-10-01 14:20:05 UTC
This naming scheme was an ample fuckup.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
I will say that we absolutely reject any argument that attempts to claim that obscure name memorization should somehow be a requirement to play EVE. It's not "dumbing down the game" to make systems more easily understandable.
Can I assume then that you will be going back to "fix" the absolutely opaque ship naming scheme?

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Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
#390 - 2014-10-01 14:23:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. Thanks for the feedback so far.

We're doing some discussion internally about the concerns some people have expressed about the naming.
I will say that we absolutely reject any argument that attempts to claim that obscure name memorization should somehow be a requirement to play EVE. It's not "dumbing down the game" to make systems more easily understandable.
However some of the concerns about the lore and flavour have merit and we're talking about what we might change to better address those concerns. Nothing related to this will be changing for Oceanus, but everything can be iterated upon.

Also, if you've read the patch notes or dev blog today you'll have seen that we made an adjustment to the Restrained Cap Flux Coil stats. We had some wires crossed internally and thanks to your feedback we've cleared up the erroneous stats. The Restrained Cap Flux Coil will indeed have reduced drawback instead of increased drawback. It will have a capacitor pool penalty of -10% and a recharge speed bonus of 28%.

Thanks.


Fcking typical Fozzie! Just fcking textbook!!!! You're concerned with style ...yet substance, convienently for you is totally, utterly, and unsurprisingly ignored. Your idea of a useful role for modules is to homogenize until there is really only one choice to make. Just keep dumbing down the game ....it'll work ....till you're out of a job or, the game goes dark or, both. People have genuine concerns with what you are doing and you should really give a second look to some of these ideas BUT, I know you won't. {rolls eyes...why do I even bother...disgust!!RollRollRoll}
Nut Cullet
Diversity 101
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#391 - 2014-10-01 15:03:33 UTC
New meta module naming system is immature and childish. It looses all of it's SciFi depth. I hate it , i will go play something with more lore and less dumb down if this carrys on. Your killing my game one piece at a time.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#392 - 2014-10-01 15:47:30 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Krystyn wrote:
I want friggin Widdowmaker Missiles back too!!!!
And Juggernaut Torps and Gremlin Rockets and Doom torpedoes for my Phoenix!!!


Yup.

Search [ kind:missile size:medium damage:thermal ]


That might even be something to have Aura talk about in a Tutorial. No reason to hide the feature. I'd be surprised if 1% of the player base reads dev blogs--their loss, but still a problem.

Or, you know, it could just work the way every store on the web works: you ask for 'light missiles' and you get investigated by the NSAa list of everything that is a 'light missile', regardless of what its brand and model name are.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#393 - 2014-10-01 15:50:11 UTC
SOB! I just fixed most of my ship fits on EFT, and reupdage the fitting manager from all the stupid name changes of mods and the ship rebalances... Now that's useless until you guys are all done redoing everything again! It's a frakin job just to keep updated ship fits with you guys when I have hundreds of ships everywhere. Bitter sweet CCP... Bitter sweet

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 
Copper Khai
#394 - 2014-10-01 15:50:53 UTC
Nut Cullet wrote:
New meta module naming system is immature and childish. It looses all of it's SciFi depth. I hate it , i will go play something with more lore and less dumb down if this carrys on. Your killing my game one piece at a time.

childish? like I'm taking my marbles and going home childish?

I get where you guiys are coming from but Fozzie and CCP have the right idea to eliminating bad complexity. EVE has a ton of it and it needs to go. If you are complaining ask why - is it to preserve your advantage of already knowing? I used to get mad when Photoshop made a new feature that negated my secret studio trick, but then I realized - it's not a matter of roadblocks for the people behind you, it's how good you are at making art.

Lore should be considered. Loose that and you damage the IP, which is what CCP wants to expand. Also, lots of very "scientific" games are coming and they will take a bite out of EVE's player base if you loose that flavor.

Good Luck CCP. You guys have made a great game that I have loved for a long time, and I'm more hopeful than ever about it.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#395 - 2014-10-01 17:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
Copper Khai wrote:
Nut Cullet wrote:
New meta module naming system is immature and childish. It looses all of it's SciFi depth. I hate it , i will go play something with more lore and less dumb down if this carrys on. Your killing my game one piece at a time.

childish? like I'm taking my marbles and going home childish?

I get where you guiys are coming from but Fozzie and CCP have the right idea to eliminating bad complexity. EVE has a ton of it and it needs to go. If you are complaining ask why - is it to preserve your advantage of already knowing? I used to get mad when Photoshop made a new feature that negated my secret studio trick, but then I realized - it's not a matter of roadblocks for the people behind you, it's how good you are at making art.

Lore should be considered. Loose that and you damage the IP, which is what CCP wants to expand. Also, lots of very "scientific" games are coming and they will take a bite out of EVE's player base if you loose that flavor.

Good Luck CCP. You guys have made a great game that I have loved for a long time, and I'm more hopeful than ever about it.


It is not about losing an advantage there really isn't any advantage to lose, as someone else already pointed out, vets aren't memorizing all the mods. CCP isn't eliminating bad complexity they are eliminating flavor. New players will need to research a whole host of different elements not just module names. Eve has a learning curve. It is part of the game. Some people seek out the challenge of that learning curve and the sense of achievement from mastering it.

If we wanted simple, non complex game play there are other games that do that quiet well.

Besides the type of people that can't be arsed to click and read, are the same type of people that will rage quit when they lose their ship to a ganker. I am willing to bet you that Code has driven off more players than a sci-fi named module.

Let me put it another way, checkers has less barriers to learning than chess, So why play chess? Checkers has to be better right? But then why do people play chess or even games more complex than chess?

*shrugs*
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#396 - 2014-10-01 18:47:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. Thanks for the feedback so far.

We're doing some discussion internally about the concerns some people have expressed about the naming.
I will say that we absolutely reject any argument that attempts to claim that obscure name memorization should somehow be a requirement to play [...]
Thanks.


But Fozzie, you are deluding yourself when you think it is not already a requirement!!

When someone shouts on comms, "Bellicose on gate!!" you have to use "obscure name memorization" to figure out what a Bellicose is, how they are fitted and how much danger it represents!!

Memorizing modules is nothing but practice for real life combat situations when roaming New Eden!
You are only harming new players by taking it away!

If I didn't want to memorize obscure scifi stuff I would be playing WOW or Candy Crush!!
Tara Vorkosigan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2014-10-01 20:38:08 UTC
IMO the theory is fine, but the execution is bad. The word Ample should only be used to describe bosoms, and harvests. It just sounds out of place in a Sci-fi game.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#398 - 2014-10-02 06:19:16 UTC
Tara Vorkosigan wrote:
The word Ample should only be used to describe bosoms, and harvests. It just sounds out of place in a Sci-fi game.


This.
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#399 - 2014-10-02 06:31:54 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, the overall module rework has been a long time coming and it feels great to start rolling it out! Hopefully these changes and the ones that follow will help make your fitting experience a more engaging one.


You screwed up on Cap Flux Coil, new meta 1 is better than T2.



Not the first mistake but feel there will be many more.

NOW GIVE MORE LOVE TO COSMOS ITEMS !!!!!!!!!!!!
Juliet DiMarco
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2014-10-02 22:29:59 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:

Let me put it another way, checkers has less barriers to learning than chess, So why play chess? Checkers has to be better right? But then why do people play chess or even games more complex than chess?


If a developer/exec who cut their teeth at Electronic Arts somehow got the rights to chess, and they believed more people played checkers than chess, you can bet the game would become chessckers in about a year and a half. After all, what good is a game you can't sell to the largest number of people possible?