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Dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, One Module At A Time

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Author
rho alpha
Nanoware Labs
#141 - 2014-09-26 01:30:04 UTC
I have been hooked on eve for 5 years now and won't be deterred so easily as just dumbing down the module names.

I often use high meta modules now, for instance 'scout' projectiles turrets, 'experimental' AF, 'prototype' MWD, & 'C5-L Emergency' SB. Fitting an extra gun more than makes up for the loss of the specialty skill bonus. If their stats are crippled by this change, the meta 4 modules will be as useless as the meta 1-3.

There may be some niche exceptions, can't tell without seeing the stats, but I agree with the market that the meta 1-4 items, whatever they're called, are destined for the reprocessing plant.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#142 - 2014-09-26 01:42:25 UTC
re-factoring names is an important undertaking I think but I do completely agree with keeping some of the spice in game. I'm looking at medium neuts in game, and when I type "Medium Energy Neut" in the search bar, I get t1, t2, and faction, with all the meta 1-4 missing. it shouldn't be too hard to change things around so it is Unstable Medium Energy Neutralizer, 50W Medium Energy Neutralizer, 'Gremlin' Medium Energy Neutralizer, and so on. I mean I really like things the "diminishing" tag as I can search for it and bam all the meta4 nos are in one place.

I'm liking that suffix idea, maybe move to the middle 'arbalest' xmg light missile launcher that way I can search for "xmg light mis" instead of "Light Missile Launcher XMG" as "Missile Launcher XMG" would bring up all the different launchers. although maybe some people would prefer that?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#143 - 2014-09-26 01:50:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Unezka Turigahl
LML T1
LML Limos 48X (Xtended Magazine, fits 48 charges)
LML Malkuth 16C-E (Effficient variant, requiring 16 CPU)
LML Arbalest 13.2R (Rapid Fire variant, with 13.2 seconds between shots)
LML Zainou 2F (Forgiving/restrained variant, 2 heat damage instead of 3+)
...
LML T2

Upgraded
Economic
Efficient
eXtended
Scoped
Forgiving
RapidFire
...
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#144 - 2014-09-26 01:59:30 UTC
I'm not into those module names. Keep the variation. If you are going to name it in a simpler manner, have this in the description.

Don't do this trauma missile thing again.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#145 - 2014-09-26 02:40:40 UTC
I n otice the "compact" light missile launcher reduces only one fitting requirement, the CPU. There is no named version that uses the same CPU, but less power, no "Efficient" version.

Maybe something to add?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

sytaqe violacea
Circus of midnight
#146 - 2014-09-26 02:44:57 UTC
Quote:
Micro 'Vigor' Core Augmentation is now Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core


Pirate NPC drops Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core!?
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2014-09-26 03:16:57 UTC
We now get to see a downside to the 6 week schedule. This idea is nowhere near ready to launch in 5 days.
While the idea of module rebalancing is good, this particular method is not.

1. I will repeat what others have said; "The new names SUCK". Ample rocket launcher, is lame. Scoped Arbalest rocket launcher, or Expanded Arbalest rocket launcher, yep, I can go for that.

2. Arbitrarily changing the stats, and therefore the value of the items sitting in hangars or on the market, is not a good way to keep your players happy.

Sorry CCP this idea needs to be put on hold.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#148 - 2014-09-26 03:40:48 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
1. NPC drop rate is not equal to the amount of modules that make it to the market. Most missioners don't bother looting and in the past the vast majority of those useless meta modules ended up in the shredder (might still be the case).

This fact merely indicates that the supply of metas from NPCs far exceeds the combined demand for metas *and* T1 modules by players, which is why most T1 modules will continue to see no use.

TigerXtrm wrote:

2. The price for those modules is currently so low because no-one wants them unless they're sold under reprocessing value. Once they get a purpose and there is a demand for them, their price will go up to more reasonable levels for their purpose. Their T1 counterpart will become the baseline for the price with an extra markup on top to account for possible rarity or scarcity, depending on how much the modules are going to be used.

Not likely, esp. for the cheaper modules, and given the supply situation you spelled out in (1). As long as the supply far exceeds the demand, meta module prices will remain baselined on reprocessing value.

Also, as someone else pointed out, players have a lot more ISK these days. So, a 50K ISK meta module is always going to be used over a 5K ISK T1 module, despite the 10x cost difference, even by noob players.

If T1 modules do not have any stat advantages, then meta modules needs to have a signficantly higher absolute cost (not merely a markup on the cost of the T1 module), in order for players to consider using T1 modules. In order to achieve this situation, metas either need to be much more scarce (ie. a large reduction in NPC drop rates), and/or need to reprocess for much higher value than the T1 equivalents.

And, yes, this adjustment would result in a one-time benefit to everyone who has a stockpile of metas, but the market would adjust as those stockpiles are depleted, and profitable T1 module manufacturing would become viable again.
JamesT KirkJr
A New Eden
#149 - 2014-09-26 03:47:16 UTC
Cae Lara wrote:
I'll have to dissent from everybody crying 'muh immersion'. Clicking through show info->variations->compare->click meta level to literally look at a spreadsheet on every item type is not immersion and is not enjoyable. Great, current players had to go through that nonsense so surely every player should have to from now until the end of time? How about no, but I can dig people asking for some of the flavor text to be retained on item names in addition to clear and consistent markers of what a module is and does.

+1 to finding better adjectives. Ample sounds goofy and scoped doesn't even begin to make sense.


How about just fixing the "lets hide the info inside clicky menu after clicky menu" UI design instead? That would certainly solve the problems you mention.

And hey, how about showing the important stats of an object when you see it in Market? That'd remove all of the reason for renaming things. When you click an item in Market, the header of the Market shows the item name and some info, but there's a big open space there just begging to be filled in with useful information, like the description, fitting, critical attributes, etc.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#150 - 2014-09-26 04:06:34 UTC
Your naming is garbage and your faction tiericide is stupid.

Oh, and the meta tiericide is stupid too. If, as stated in the dev blog, the idea is that all the flux coils give me similar overall cap recharge, then WHY take something other than the best fitting one? We're back at square one here.

1) If we are to do with named meta levels, then better fitting mods should sacrifice useful stats.

2) Simillary, T2 should be better for harder fitting (meta4 ewar anyone?).

3) A gazillion of absolutely equal faction modules is stupid. What's wrong with better and worse faction modules?
The problem with named is, they are all relatively cheap. Price is almost never a balancing factor with them (there are odd exceptions like better named MAPCs that can be more expensive than the rest of a fit, but even then it's usually pocket change). So you can just go with the best one (though there are odd exceptions too. Ironically, one of the most prominent is light missiles with malkuth being a crucial low-cpu choice for certain fits as opposed to the "best named" arbalest).

With faction modules price is usually an important factor. It's relatively common to get the cheaper one if it's enough to do the job. Or, in odd cases, you can get a cheaper faction equivalent of a T2 (seprentis pasive armor resists come to mind).

If we are to forgo the price balancing factor entirely, then we might as well do with dedspace mods since their price is the only thing that balances their stats.

Moreover, with faction mods it's quite logical that different factions of New Eden have their own preferences and capabilities when making their respective faction mods, so the mods can not be similar and should reflect the faction flavour.

4) Naming. Dear CCP. Your game has severely enhanced my memory capabilities for which I'm eternally grateful to you. Please please please do not remove this wonderful opportunity for newer players. If you want to kill immersion that much please find another way. Sincerely yours, a faithful customer.
JamesT KirkJr
A New Eden
#151 - 2014-09-26 04:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: JamesT KirkJr
....This may be the second step on the way to themeparkville, where everything does exactly what makes it easiest for developers to manage and there's zero room for emergent gameplay. I hope not. But you devs come from that world, so the possibility is always there.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#152 - 2014-09-26 04:20:52 UTC
Gargep Farrow wrote:
We now get to see a downside to the 6 week schedule. This idea is nowhere near ready to launch in 5 days.
While the idea of module rebalancing is good, this particular method is not.

1. I will repeat what others have said; "The new names SUCK". Ample rocket launcher, is lame. Scoped Arbalest rocket launcher, or Expanded Arbalest rocket launcher, yep, I can go for that.

2. Arbitrarily changing the stats, and therefore the value of the items sitting in hangars or on the market, is not a good way to keep your players happy.

Sorry CCP this idea needs to be put on hold.


I agree, they really need to be posting what is going to be in the patch that shows up in 6 weeks and 4 days nowish (okay maybe get the patch out, and a week later or so), and not what is going live in 4 days

module tiericide is a great high level idea, and while most of the changes are okay and probably wont really affect anyone, getting into some of the good mods, and judging from what fozzie said in that trailer thingy that showed up the other day they shoehorned LMLs into the list of mods getting updated pretty last minute.

as it stands the only valuable meta mods are either equal t2 and/or are easier to fit. Meta DCs have slightly less stats but are much easier to fit, Also Neuts where meta > t2, with less cap use and easier to fit. Using my magic crystal ball on the future of other meta mods, and well I just don't see all that many meaningful changes. ah well should keep the reprocessing crews happy I guess?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
#153 - 2014-09-26 04:21:30 UTC
I have been around a long time and I *still* have to "show info" on a ton of meta modules, especially in the categories where there are five flavors of basic modules cluttering up my old inventory stacks. I whole-heartedly love the notion of combining and rationalizing a bunch of the meta modules. I do agree however that with stuff like weapons systems, there are plenty of parameters to tweak for more than two flavors of meta mods.

My biggest concern, though, as a scruffy salvager type, is that you are making rat loot EVEN MORE BORING.

Right now, if there aren't any faction wrecks in your loot field, the only possible interesting loot item you're going to find is a rare Meta4 module that's actually worth some ISK. There aren't many of these, and most looting now is an endless refrain of "worthless, dull, worthless, boring, worthless, dull, scrap, fail, worthless." When rat loot had more mineral value, at least there was that. Now? Nah.

So now we are combining four different metas of varying rarities into one or two varieties. Assuming no changes to the loot table, the rares will now be more common (Malkuth and Arbelest drops combined into one new module drop) and less valuable.

I don't offer this as a reason not to do it. Simplifying the fitting experience for new players is enough reason to do it, IMO, in a game with declining enrollment. Good plan, long overdue.

But that leaves the question: What can you do to make rat looting more interesting?

I know this is a PvP game. The PvE experience is never the priority. But there have been a lot of changes over the years that have made rat looting more generic, less valuable, and much less interesting. Isn't it time to spice it up a little?

Obviously we don't want random Gurista pirates dropping faction loot. I mean, we WANT it, but it doesn't make game design sense. But couldn't they at least drop some quafe, or some exotic dancers? Couldn't every rat have some small fractional-percentage chance of having *something* unusual or amusing or modestly valuable in his personal locker when we blow him up?

I feel like looting is going to be EVEN MORE BORING after these useful and valuable changes. Throw us a bone, here?
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#154 - 2014-09-26 04:27:24 UTC
This is a very nice start to a very long overdue fix. It has been a plight on the diversity in Eve that most named modules have been useless for anything other than reprocessing, and that many meta 4 modules are better than their tech 2 meta 5 counterparts in all ways. Good job on taking the first steps to fixing this problem, in a way that actually creates useful diversity within the module groups. Now about that rorqual fix.... >.>
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#155 - 2014-09-26 04:46:37 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I think you screwed up Restrained Capacitor Flux Coil, as they're flatly better in every way than the T2 version. Aside from that this looks like a good design philosophy for named mods.


This. It doesn't follow the theme at all... Its even more powerful then the cosmos versions
Well spotted, this should actually be -25% (which is what you'll see on Sisi just now). We'll get that changed in the blog.


But that doesn't RESTRAIN the drawback, that makes the drawback (reduced capacitor) WORSE. High cap recharge is a wonderful thing, but a thick reservoir is often more important in a battle, if for no other reason than Neut/NOS warfare. To properly Restrain the drawback, you need a smaller chunk taken out of cap capacity and a subsequent reduction in recharge rate (to keep the module in line with other options).


Also, on a side note, I would like to suggest changing the word 'Restrained' to 'Mitigated'.
Mei Nakamura
Daedalus Initiative
#156 - 2014-09-26 04:53:44 UTC
I'd just like to add a +1 to the opinion that changing the names sucks. Learning all the names and their respective pros/cons was one of the things that got me hooked on this game.

As a noob, I distinctly remember feeling a sense achievement when I got my first Malkuth drop, or could afford my first prototype gauss gun. I didn't always fit the meta 4's because I didn't know such a scale existed and even when I did, I mostly couldn't afford to buy them anyway. The price differential made it "ok" for there to be better versions of everything. Sometimes I fit lesser modules just because I thought the names were cooler and they were cheaper.

It's easy to forget that when you've been around for a while, and you start using meta 4's or T2 by default, but I think the proposed changes are the wrong way to fix that. If it were me, I'd leave everything where it is, warts and all, and instead add BPC drops for named modules, allowing for inventing T2 named modules.. 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher II anyone??
JamesT KirkJr
A New Eden
#157 - 2014-09-26 04:59:40 UTC
Mei Nakamura wrote:
I'd just like to add a +1 to the opinion that changing the names sucks. Learning all the names and their respective pros/cons was one of the things that got me hooked on this game.

As a noob, I distinctly remember feeling a sense achievement when I got my first Malkuth drop, or could afford my first prototype gauss gun. I didn't always fit the meta 4's because I didn't know such a scale existed and even when I did, I mostly couldn't afford to buy them anyway. The price differential made it "ok" for there to be better versions of everything. Sometimes I fit lesser modules just because I thought the names were cooler and they were cheaper.

It's easy to forget that when you've been around for a while, and you start using meta 4's or T2 by default, but I think the proposed changes are the wrong way to fix that. If it were me, I'd leave everything where it is, warts and all, and instead add BPC drops for named modules, allowing for inventing T2 named modules.. 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher II anyone??


+1 for an original and very likely better idea.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#158 - 2014-09-26 05:12:41 UTC
Removed a yellow wall.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Fu Qjoo
Externa Holdings
Externa Group
#159 - 2014-09-26 05:29:38 UTC
Why are you doing this? I do not want to play with illiterate people that are to dumb to click the compare button in the module info.
What will this game be when you dumb it further down? Eve lives mostly, if not only from the complexity and difficulty. If you take this away, what stays?
Red Bluesteel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2014-09-26 05:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Bluesteel
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Removed a yellow wall.

Hey, remove yourself Twisted


CCP is going to Ruin a Game, that i loved to play...

All this Tiericide nonsense Changes on Module Level is quiet doing it the total wrong way Attention

Why we Use Meta Level Items Question Right, not because we have the Items, we love to play with different Fittings playing and testing around to get the MAX out of Something, e.g. Speed, DPS, Targeting Speed, Range and so on ans so forth.

Why do you now Remove most of this more or less Useful Items Question Right, because CCP Members/Developers didn't play there own Game in such Level of Detail and Passion we do.

Why are most of the new Items total Bullshit Question Right, because there isn't anymore a whole bunch of possible differences between all those new Modules, like the LML's as there are Arbalests with good ROF, Ammo capacity and less Requirements.

And Hey, these Names, Really Question (e.g. Ample, Red Light for CCP Twisted )


I Deeply hope that you all @CCP Sleep more than an Night over your Plans and Drop them to the Trashcan...


If Not, go an shame on you Evil