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High Sec Hauling/Mining Kills - TY CCP for No Protection

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#561 - 2014-08-31 01:31:45 UTC
I am fully in agreement with the post by CCP Falcon. CONCORD is supposed to be a police force, they clean up the mess and dispatch criminals, not prevent the crime from occurring in the first place. People need to learn to fit their ships properly, check intel channels, and use the cloak + mwd trick. Personally i think non-combat ships should have fewer ehp, and combat ships should have more ehp, to reflect their relative designs.

What does not make sense, and is clearly an exploit, and is wholly inconsistent with CONCORD being a police force, is the way gankers, and specifically CODE, use bumping ships to prevent gank targets from warping, and therefore allow the EXACT SAME gankers to target the EXACT SAME ship every 15 minutes, without CONCORD dealing with the bumpers. What police force, upon foiling an attempted murder, and hauling the attempted murderers off to jail, would then, at the scene of the crime, allow friends of the criminals to hold down the victim for the next 15 minutes, so that the criminals, now released from jail, could come and finish the job? What police force, upon foiling an attempted car theft, and hauling the perpetrators to jail, would allow friends of the criminals, to, at the crime scene, prevent the car from leaving, so exactly 15 minutes later the EXACT SAME criminals could come and steal the EXACT SAME car? How is this even conceivably reflective of the way a police force would respond? Please take action so that bumpers cant not unlawfully entrap (a crime in every jurisdiction!) gank targets between gank attempts (an action that is 100% equivalent to warp scrambling, and hence a criminal act).
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#562 - 2014-08-31 01:32:28 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


One of my pet concepts is that players should be allowed to use NPC for tasks whose opportunity cost is too high for a human player. Say, bringing NPC anti-gank right when you need it, for a price that compensates the loss inflicted on gankers. Would you spend a 500 millon one-shot NPC anti-gank to laugh at a flight of ganknados? Would you gank if you knew that X is known for using NPC anti-ganks? (These are rhetorical questions, btw)



Hi Indah,

Maybe you've quit this thread already.. lol. I don't blame you in the slightest.


I believe we should consider all the implications of your suggestion.



  • If you can hire a 500m NPC, can't the gankers do the same? A gankfleet already has a CONCORD deterrent for anyone who may want to preemptively attack them. Now they have a protector. Is this wise?

  • How effective should these guys be? How can they possibly *prevent* a fleet of high alpha/high DPS boats from killing you? There is no unit in the game that can currently do that (prevent.. not punish an entire gank squad)

  • Are people going to start bringing these into lowsec/nullsec roams?

  • Aren't you just describing a very powerful Drone? Aren't the Golems a bit on the border of being overpowered? Do you think we should have more powerful Drones than Golems?

  • Wouldn't these NPCs be like Drones except you don't have to skill up in anything for them?

  • Do you think a particularly rich Alliance or Corp could afford more of these NPCs than a lone freighter pilot? Do you know how much money CODE. is sitting on top of? How many of these NPCs could be afforded by 400b ISK?



Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#563 - 2014-08-31 01:35:47 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

What does not make sense, and is clearly an exploit


Not according to CCP.

Theirs is the only opinion that matters.

You can cry about real life all you like, but it has no bearing on how the magic space police behave in a video game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#564 - 2014-08-31 01:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
What does not make sense, and is clearly an exploit, and is wholly inconsistent with CONCORD being a police force, is the way gankers, and specifically CODE, use bumping ships to prevent gank targets from warping, and therefore allow the EXACT SAME gankers to target the EXACT SAME ship every 15 minutes, without CONCORD dealing with the bumpers.

How is it an exploit?
How is it inconsistent with CONCORD being a mechanic for enforcing aggression costs?
What's so strange about the same gankers aggressing the same ship every 16 minutes?

Quote:
Please take action so that bumpers cant not unlawfully entrap (a crime in every jurisdiction!) gank targets between gank attempts (an action that is 100% equivalent to warp scrambling, and hence a criminal act).

They already can't do that, and it is already not equivalent to warp scrambling and hence not a criminal act.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2014-08-31 01:41:56 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

What does not make sense, and is clearly an exploit, and is wholly inconsistent with CONCORD being a police force, is the way gankers, and specifically CODE, use bumping ships to prevent gank targets from warping, and therefore allow the EXACT SAME gankers to target the EXACT SAME ship every 15 minutes, without CONCORD dealing with the bumpers. What police force, upon foiling an attempted murder, and hauling the attempted murderers off to jail, would then, at the scene of the crime, allow friends of the criminals to hold down the victim for the next 15 minutes, so that the criminals, now released from jail, could come and finish the job? What police force, upon foiling an attempted car theft, and hauling the perpetrators to jail, would allow friends of the criminals, to, at the crime scene, prevent the car from leaving, so exactly 15 minutes later the EXACT SAME criminals could come and steal the EXACT SAME car? How is this even conceivably reflective of the way a police force would respond? Please take action so that bumpers cant not unlawfully entrap (a crime in every jurisdiction!) gank targets between gank attempts (an action that is 100% equivalent to warp scrambling, and hence a criminal act).


There are many no win situations in the game. Being caught in a bubble without the ability to burn out or tank the gate camp is a no win situation. Being caught without a WTZ at a station like Jita 4-4 is a no win situation.


The point is, no one forced that Orca to be in that no win situation. They could have scouted the system, they could have used a webber alt, they could have used a different ship, a different route (maybe through WH).. there are in fact a long list of remedies (which I believe I have previously linked, but here it is again).


Why should the mechanics change for someone who has deliberately placed themselves in a no win situation?




I want to mention Kobayashi Maru but I will refrain from that. P

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#566 - 2014-08-31 02:04:44 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

What does not make sense, and is clearly an exploit, and is wholly inconsistent with CONCORD being a police force, is the way gankers, and specifically CODE, use bumping ships to prevent gank targets from warping, and therefore allow the EXACT SAME gankers to target the EXACT SAME ship every 15 minutes, without CONCORD dealing with the bumpers. What police force, upon foiling an attempted murder, and hauling the attempted murderers off to jail, would then, at the scene of the crime, allow friends of the criminals to hold down the victim for the next 15 minutes, so that the criminals, now released from jail, could come and finish the job? What police force, upon foiling an attempted car theft, and hauling the perpetrators to jail, would allow friends of the criminals, to, at the crime scene, prevent the car from leaving, so exactly 15 minutes later the EXACT SAME criminals could come and steal the EXACT SAME car? How is this even conceivably reflective of the way a police force would respond? Please take action so that bumpers cant not unlawfully entrap (a crime in every jurisdiction!) gank targets between gank attempts (an action that is 100% equivalent to warp scrambling, and hence a criminal act).


There are many no win situations in the game. Being caught in a bubble without the ability to burn out or tank the gate camp is a no win situation. Being caught without a WTZ at a station like Jita 4-4 is a no win situation.


The point is, no one forced that Orca to be in that no win situation. They could have scouted the system, they could have used a webber alt, they could have used a different ship, a different route (maybe through WH).. there are in fact a long list of remedies (which I believe I have previously linked, but here it is again).


Why should the mechanics change for someone who has deliberately placed themselves in a no win situation?




I want to mention Kobayashi Maru but I will refrain from that. P


Because as CCP Falcon said "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive."

Bumping to prevent a ship between ganks, and make it functionally impossible to warp, is unlawful entrapment, and would draw a law enforcement agency response. CONCORD should mimic a law enforcement agency and respond to unlawful imprisonment.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#567 - 2014-08-31 02:16:49 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Because as CCP Falcon said "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive."
Yes, CONCORD does that.
You didn't answer his question.

Quote:
Bumping to prevent a ship between ganks, and make it functionally impossible to warp, is unlawful entrapment
Even if it did do that (and it doesn't), it's not unlawful in any way.

Quote:
CONCORD should mimic a law enforcement agency and respond to unlawful imprisonment.
No, they really shouldn't, but they do anyway.
Luukje
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#568 - 2014-08-31 02:25:11 UTC
Veers belvar must be a troll, or just ignorant as ****. Haulers have SO MANY options to ensure safe passage, it just requires you to use 2 chars, be it scout or more preferred a webber. you'll be in warp sideways before the first bump lands. but no youre refusing to use the tools handed and then cry for more hand holding. derp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#569 - 2014-08-31 02:26:26 UTC
Luukje wrote:
Veers belvar must be a troll, or just ignorant as ****.


Why not both? Never underestimate the stupidity of carebears, nor their ability to blindly cling to something even after a blue explicitly tells them that they are wrong.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#570 - 2014-08-31 02:28:27 UTC
Luukje wrote:
Veers belvar must be a troll, or just ignorant as ****. Haulers have SO MANY options to ensure safe passage, it just requires you to use 2 chars, be it scout or more preferred a webber. you'll be in warp sideways before the first bump lands. but no youre refusing to use the tools handed and then cry for more hand holding. derp


Which is completely irrelevent to whether CONCORD should respond on not. If you fly into Uedama, without any support, or 2 characters, and the bad guys shoot you, does CONCORD say tough luck? Of course not, it comes and shoots the gankers! Why should CONCORD response depends on the "tools handed to you?" Do the police tell robbery victims, "we are not coming because you should have picked a better neighborhood to live in?"
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#571 - 2014-08-31 02:30:00 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Luukje wrote:
Veers belvar must be a troll, or just ignorant as ****.


Why not both? Never underestimate the stupidity of carebears, nor their ability to blindly cling to something even after a blue explicitly tells them that they are wrong.


Except that CCP Falcon has not responded to my point (and I hope that he will). You will excuse me for not relying on your expansive knowledge of game mechanics and law enforcement. And great use of "carebear," real classy.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#572 - 2014-08-31 02:30:15 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Which is completely irrelevent to whether CONCORD should respond on not. If you fly into Uedama, without any support, or 2 characters, and the bad guys shoot you, does CONCORD say tough luck? Of course not
…because a crime has been committed, unlike with, say, bumping.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#573 - 2014-08-31 02:32:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Please take action so that bumpers cant not unlawfully entrap (a crime in every jurisdiction!) gank targets between gank attempts (an action that is 100% equivalent to warp scrambling, and hence a criminal act).


It's not a crime in New Eden.

It's not equivalent to warp scrambling.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#574 - 2014-08-31 02:35:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Which is completely irrelevent to whether CONCORD should respond on not. If you fly into Uedama, without any support, or 2 characters, and the bad guys shoot you, does CONCORD say tough luck? Of course not
…because a crime has been committed, unlike with, say, bumping.


Well, this will be my last round with you, and I will await response from CCP Falcon. When the bumping is 100% functionally equivalent to warp scrambling it is a crime.

And from the other thread, my question to CCP Falcon - assuming optimal bumping from 3 optimally fitted Machariels, and optimal response from a freighter fitted with tank rigs, will the freighter be able to escape within 15 minutes? If the answer is, as I suspect, "no," then should not the bumping here, especially when used between successive gank attempts by the EXACT SAME gankers, trigger a CONCORD response per your prior post that CONCORD acts as a reactive law enforcement agency, which would respond to the commission of the crime of False Imprisonment?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#575 - 2014-08-31 02:37:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Well, this will be my last round with you, and I will await response from CCP Falcon.
You already have your answer.

Quote:
When the bumping is 100% functionally equivalent to warp scrambling it is a crime.
So never, then. That explains why it's allowed, why CCP says it's working as intended, and why CONCORD does not respond: because simply isn't a crime.

Quote:
And from the other thread, my question to CCP Falcon - assuming optimal bumping from 3 optimally fitted Machariels, and optimal response from a freighter fitted with tank rigs, will the freighter be able to escape within 15 minutes?
Yes. Your suspicions are based a completely different scenario where the freighter does pretty much nothing.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#576 - 2014-08-31 02:38:35 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Which is completely irrelevent to whether CONCORD should respond on not. If you fly into Uedama, without any support, or 2 characters, and the bad guys shoot you, does CONCORD say tough luck? Of course not
…because a crime has been committed, unlike with, say, bumping.


Well, this will be my last round with you, and I will await response from CCP Falcon. When the bumping is 100% functionally equivalent to warp scrambling it is a crime.

And from the other thread, my question to CCP Falcon - assuming optimal bumping from 3 optimally fitted Machariels, and optimal response from a freighter fitted with tank rigs, will the freighter be able to escape within 15 minutes? If the answer is, as I suspect, "no," then should not the bumping here, especially when used between successive gank attempts by the EXACT SAME gankers, trigger a CONCORD response per your prior post that CONCORD acts as a reactive law enforcement agency, which would respond to the commission of the crime of False Imprisonment?


You just crossposted your complaint to the thread which has the 100% official response to the complaint.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Luukje
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#577 - 2014-08-31 02:39:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Luukje wrote:
Veers belvar must be a troll, or just ignorant as ****.


Why not both? Never underestimate the stupidity of carebears, nor their ability to blindly cling to something even after a blue explicitly tells them that they are wrong.


the stupidity of the general eve public is what i make my isk on; as shown by OP Cool
oh and veers, stop crying about bumps, the fact you got yourself bumped means you didnt have a scout or a webber or refused to use them.
tools are there; use them.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#578 - 2014-08-31 02:41:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
When the bumping is 100% functionally equivalent to warp scrambling it is a crime.



Then it never is.

That was easier than I thought it would be.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#579 - 2014-08-31 02:44:25 UTC
Luukje wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Luukje wrote:
Veers belvar must be a troll, or just ignorant as ****.


Why not both? Never underestimate the stupidity of carebears, nor their ability to blindly cling to something even after a blue explicitly tells them that they are wrong.


the stupidity of the general eve public is what i make my isk on; as shown by OP Cool
oh and veers, stop crying about bumps, the fact you got yourself bumped means you didnt have a scout or a webber or refused to use them.
tools are there; use them.


I didn't get bumped (feel free to check my killboard), and response to criminal activity in highsec should not depend on using a scout or a webber. Those may be helpful for avoiding death between the crime and the CONCORD response, but should not be required to trigger CONCORD acting as a "law enforcement agency."
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#580 - 2014-08-31 02:45:40 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Which is completely irrelevent to whether CONCORD should respond on not. If you fly into Uedama, without any support, or 2 characters, and the bad guys shoot you, does CONCORD say tough luck? Of course not
…because a crime has been committed, unlike with, say, bumping.


Well, this will be my last round with you, and I will await response from CCP Falcon. When the bumping is 100% functionally equivalent to warp scrambling it is a crime.

And from the other thread, my question to CCP Falcon - assuming optimal bumping from 3 optimally fitted Machariels, and optimal response from a freighter fitted with tank rigs, will the freighter be able to escape within 15 minutes? If the answer is, as I suspect, "no," then should not the bumping here, especially when used between successive gank attempts by the EXACT SAME gankers, trigger a CONCORD response per your prior post that CONCORD acts as a reactive law enforcement agency, which would respond to the commission of the crime of False Imprisonment?


You just crossposted your complaint to the thread which has the 100% official response to the complaint.


That thread never addressed using bumping falsely imprison gank victims between successive ganks from the exact same gankers. That response was to AFK miners crying that Code bumped them off their asteroid, and required the to come press F1 more often than once an hour.