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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1041 - 2014-08-18 05:33:54 UTC
Thatt Guy wrote:

Source: https://soundcloud.com/atomycx/wormhole-townhall-with-ccp-fozzie @ 23:23


That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible.

Props to Fozzie for sitting through all that and being professional.

BTW, next time you take a vote, don't take one in a place full of people about to get some of their entitlements taken away. A vote among ALL the eve players would matter, not one among mad wormhole dwealers.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Pallader
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1042 - 2014-08-18 09:00:50 UTC
Quote:
That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible.


It's a pain the people for whom wormholes were home. This is the pain of people who simply leave the game forever, than to put up with wild Innovations.
This dying moan of people who do not need any low or nullsec, because they were there and did not find myself.
They found themselves in a wormhole, but new mechanics makes this place is too static and dull.

It is a sign that we have listened, and did everything in his own way, without solving the problem.
T0SHI KONI
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1043 - 2014-08-18 09:17:04 UTC
This has probably been posted already but I can't find it so here it is (again?). After Fozzie left the town hall, the discussion continued and another player whose name I didn't catch proposed the idea of inverting the spew mechanics. This would still allow heavier ships to be used to roll holes but still achieve the attempt at breaking the brawling on the hole meta by shooting light kitier ships out at a fighting range.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1044 - 2014-08-18 09:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sentamon wrote:
Thatt Guy wrote:

Source: https://soundcloud.com/atomycx/wormhole-townhall-with-ccp-fozzie @ 23:23


That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible.

Props to Fozzie for sitting through all that and being professional.

BTW, next time you take a vote, don't take one in a place full of people about to get some of their entitlements taken away. A vote among ALL the eve players would matter, not one among mad wormhole dwealers.




Of course, your idea makes perfect sense, Lets allow everyone to vote on issues that have no relevance to them whatsoever, I mean the fact that they might know about something that affects their daily life in a way that completely alters the experience, shouldn't mean that their voice should be allowed to be heard over the noise?

Everyone should also vote in all the internal polls that the large corporations run in Nullsec too, all the elections for your higher positions? We should vote on where you go to war, what systems you occupy too.

What? You don't have votes for that? Something that affects your daily life? Wow anyone would think you are a dictatorship?
Probably why you have no understanding of how functional democracy works.

Or:- damn self entitled Texans, why shouldn't I vote in their local elections, I Live in New York! I'm an AMERICAN, I should have the right to force crappy changes on anyone! If you prefer an even more ridiculous example of your thought process.

Now THAT is self entitled.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1045 - 2014-08-18 09:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Pallader wrote:
Quote:
That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible.


It's a pain the people for whom wormholes were home. This is the pain of people who simply leave the game forever, than to put up with wild Innovations.
This dying moan of people who do not need any low or nullsec, because they were there and did not find myself.
They found themselves in a wormhole, but new mechanics makes this place is too static and dull.

It is a sign that we have listened, and did everything in his own way, without solving the problem.


The next sound you will hear is silence, the community has put forward the reasons why it is a bad change loudly, clearly, and there is no room for misunderstanding how despised this change is.

Fozzie is quite capable of understanding this. However he does not seem to understand the difference between a random variable and just Cruel, dispassionate LUCK.

He either chooses not to, or those above him have decided and he needs to put it in anyway, and he can only put sugar on the poison, to help it go down.

So the poison is swallowed? CCP won! We know best! ..............Why are people quiet?

The silence you will hear, will be people giving up, giving up believing, giving up imagining, giving up trying to make a difference. Giving up caring.

After all what's the point? If all ones efforts can be reduced to nothing, by something that does not care if you live, die, or even exist, why should we care if EVE lives, dies or even exists?

We are not left with anger! We are left with apathy.

Wow! That was really well done!

I have seen some dumb things done in my life, but rarely so spectacularly badly by educated adults.
But then again, why Should We care?

Now they have taken this step, they may as well introduce occasional random spawns of invulnerable Space pandas that suck you out of your ship, and empty your wallet. they can just balance the numbers to get it right. That's fun by this thinking. Content right?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1046 - 2014-08-18 11:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
T0SHI KONI wrote:
This has probably been posted already but I can't find it so here it is (again?). After Fozzie left the town hall, the discussion continued and another player whose name I didn't catch proposed the idea of inverting the spew mechanics. This would still allow heavier ships to be used to roll holes but still achieve the attempt at breaking the brawling on the hole meta by shooting light kitier ships out at a fighting range.


There were attempts to offer proposals that would achieve or exceed CCP's stated goals whilst still enabling players to influence the final result, due to skill or tactics. the overall consensus, was however that this was a poor idea in it's entirety and was best restarted from first principles.

But, it seems that the belief is, withIn CCP, that polishing this idea, is the best that will happen.

Leaving it to luck is just so much easier and cheaper to code I imagine.Straight

we all enjoy a good random whelping it seems.Roll ContentWhat?RollRoll

No matter how much we said otherwise, but there are none so deaf as those who will not hear.
Apparently we just do not appreciate what is best for us.Straight

CCP is certainly no Apple to get away with passing off bad ideas like that, and besides it only worked for them because they were right.

Fozzie was effective though in reducing a clusterfuck into just a simple disaster. One could expect no more than that of anyone, when dealing with such material. Such a pity that we will all lose from it. it was fun while it lasted.

The problem is that this will probably be the last game any of us ever play, It was the one place where you could build something, where your actions had consequences and persistence, There was no fate but the one we made for ourselves. one could almost have a second existence in the game. And it was good.

But now? all you risk can be taken from you in a moment with the simple roll of the dice.

We will never see it's like in our lifetimes again.Sad

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1047 - 2014-08-18 12:37:09 UTC
^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.

CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.

Can you still roll holes? Yes.
Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.

And that's the long and short of it.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1048 - 2014-08-18 12:48:19 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.

CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.

Can you still roll holes? Yes.
Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.

And that's the long and short of it.


Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment implementation, then not much to say to you is there.
and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different.
This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance.

THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK!

Do you actually understand yet?

Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun.
Evil

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#1049 - 2014-08-18 12:48:34 UTC
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.

I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1050 - 2014-08-18 12:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.

I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.


The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome.
This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly.

The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience.

You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort. Russian roulette is a better analogy.

The smaller Corps are the ones who will suffer the most, at least the large corps can flood the hole so that some end up close to each other, but individuals will still be sacrifices to luck, even if the battle is won.

Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#1051 - 2014-08-18 13:06:26 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.

I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.


The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome.
This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly.

The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience.

You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort.
Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you?


And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either

1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR
2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component

If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about...
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1052 - 2014-08-18 13:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Aiyshimin wrote:
^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.

CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.

Can you still roll holes? Yes.
Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.

And that's the long and short of it.



Sadly its not the long and short of it and a mechanic that massively reduces things to random doesn't make it wilder, less tamed in theme. I disagree slightly that it purely reduces it to random as when collapsing holes you usually make a decision about the order to collapse them in (if you have more than 1 into the system your based from) and scout any direction a threat is likely to emerge from before committing.

Carrying on a theme...

Does it make things more risky? actually a lot of the time no and when it does it tends to mostly exploit the inefficiencies of smaller corps and an enabling factor for easy ganks.

Does it make things more tedious while bringing little enhancement to the gameplay? a resounding yes

To quote verbatim a comment I saw from someone else who is has long been an active part of wormhole pvp: "I rage roll only to find pvp and for this already tedious task to take longer makes me not want to play. " and its a sentiment I've seen from many others who have long been part of making w-space what it is today and even from those relatively new to w-space.


EDIT: I mean why not for **** and giggles decide that warping into a POS is too low risk and make it so players land 20km from the FF and have to slow boat into the FF this is about the same level if you put it into perspective.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1053 - 2014-08-18 13:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.

I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.


The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome.
This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly.

The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience.

You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort.
Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you?


And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either

1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR
2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component

If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about...


There is a massive difference between utilising random mechanics to influence the persistence of an effect, and using random mechanics to determine the survivability of a vessel.

if you cannot see that, then you soon will after something that you worked for gets taken from you just due to luck, a bad break, sorry, start again.. in another couple of months you might be able to try hole roulette again.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Baumi
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1054 - 2014-08-18 13:22:37 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.



The risk part is (at least for me) not the problem.
The main thing is needing more time to roll.

Right now, if we try ragerolling, we roll around 6 hours until we find someone.
With this change, this time would increase even more.

Of course, we can go and scan a chain.
We are used to this, until a few weeks ago, we lived in a C5/C2 where that was our standard tactics.
However, doing that, you won't catch anyone ratting. If you start ratting, you close all incoming holes first.
The only way to kill these people is to roll into them.
Thus, this means that PvEing will get even safer.

Ofc there are people to stupid to close, but that is quite rare.

Anyway, we killed a lot of closing caps. Noone can tell me that closing right now is not dangerous. If you have multiple incomings and you close the wrong one first, you might loose a capital (in your own hole, that is). *Maybe* it will become a little bit more dangerous now, but with decent scouting and rapiers etc there should be no surpises.
Additionally, most WH Groups are very honourable, if one side decides to stand down, most will tell the "enemy" and let them close in peace (I know, this is not how it works in different parts of EvE and might be hard to believe).

However, I think most of us are not here to kill single closing capitals but for epic fights with multiple Capitals and Shinies dieing.

Since this change discourages bringing capitals on the field, the chances for these fights will be even more diminished.

Tl;dr
Dafuq CCP?
This change:
* makes PvE safer
* discourages Capital PvP
* makes it harder to find *decent* PvP
all in trade for a *small* chance to kill closing capitals

Instead of making more kills possible this does the opposite!
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#1055 - 2014-08-18 13:27:00 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.

I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.


The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome.
This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly.

The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience.

You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort.
Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you?


And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either

1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR
2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component

If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about...


There is a massive difference between utilising random mechanics to influence the persistence of an effect, and using random mechanics to determine the survivability of a vessel.

if you cannot see that, then you soon will after something that you worked for gets taken from you just due to luck, a bad break, sorry, start again.. in another couple of months you might be able to try hole roulette again.


Both affect the survival of the ship in question. Flying a battleship or HIC through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space connections when a hole collapses behind you is not a risk-free endeavor
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1056 - 2014-08-18 13:27:27 UTC
Baumi wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.



The risk part is (at least for me) not the problem.
The main thing is needing more time to roll.

Right now, if we try ragerolling, we roll around 6 hours until we find someone.
With this change, this time would increase even more.

Of course, we can go and scan a chain.
We are used to this, until a few weeks ago, we lived in a C5/C2 where that was our standard tactics.
However, doing that, you won't catch anyone ratting. If you start ratting, you close all incoming holes first.
The only way to kill these people is to roll into them.
Thus, this means that PvEing will get even safer.

Ofc there are people to stupid to close, but that is quite rare.

Anyway, we killed a lot of closing caps. Noone can tell me that closing right now is not dangerous. If you have multiple incomings and you close the wrong one first, you might loose a capital (in your own hole, that is). *Maybe* it will become a little bit more dangerous now, but with decent scouting and rapiers etc there should be no surpises.
Additionally, most WH Groups are very honourable, if one side decides to stand down, most will tell the "enemy" and let them close in peace (I know, this is not how it works in different parts of EvE and might be hard to believe).

However, I think most of us are not here to kill single closing capitals but for epic fights with multiple Capitals and Shinies dieing.

Since this change discourages bringing capitals on the field, the chances for these fights will be even more diminished.

Tl;dr
Dafuq CCP?
This change:
* makes PvE safer
* discourages Capital PvP
* makes it harder to find *decent* PvP
all in trade for a *small* chance to kill closing capitals

Instead of making more kills possible this does the opposite!


All this is true too, so we all know the disadvantages of this change, what are its advantages? I still cannot see one.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1057 - 2014-08-18 13:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.

I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.


The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome.
This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly.

The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience.

You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort.
Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you?


And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either

1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR
2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component

If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about...


There is a massive difference between utilising random mechanics to influence the persistence of an effect, and using random mechanics to determine the survivability of a vessel.

if you cannot see that, then you soon will after something that you worked for gets taken from you just due to luck, a bad break, sorry, start again.. in another couple of months you might be able to try hole roulette again.


Both affect the survival of the ship in question. Flying a battleship or HIC through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space connections when a hole collapses behind you is not a risk-free endeavor



Absolutely It never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way.

So now your choices when confronted with a crit or any hole, are only one. Don't try to close it.

Hardly encourages gameplay.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kalazaar Barin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1058 - 2014-08-18 13:36:23 UTC
From the updated dev blog (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/):

Quote:
After continued discussion with the community we have made some adjustments from the original plan. We are reducing the base range significantly for large ships, and changing the random element to the jump distance. Now the maximum deviation from the base distance will increase for jumping through wormholes that have had significant amounts of mass pass through them. The deviation will be a maximum of 2km for fresh wormholes, and will increase to as much as 5km (in either direction) for a wormhole that is about to collapse. There will also be a lower bound of 2.5km set to prevent the wormhole from decloaking ships.



Reduction of the base range for larger ships

Generally, I appreciate this. This reduces the amount of extra time needed for ragerolling after the patch. Now Orcas and Dreads have a reasonably possibility to be able to slowboat back into jumprange (empty systems only ofc).
However, all the other concerns regarding WH fights stay the same (refitting, optimals for Dreads, Orcas of small corps getting caught etc).


Deviation of the distance now depended on remaining mass of the WH

I don't understand the reasoning behind this.
Let's say the heaviest class of ship I use for closing a specific hole is an Orca. If I choose to send it through at the very beginning, it will appear between 8.1 and 12.1km away from the hole (fresh hole = deviation range is [-2km,+2km], base distance is 10.1km). So in best case, the distance to jump range is 3.1km, worst case 7.1km.
Other way: Orca is the very last ship to jump through (I mean the first trip, not the one back that clsoes the hole). The base range stays the same, only the max. deviation is higher: now just below [-5km,+5km]. That makes the way back to jump range to be at best 0.1km, worst case 10.1km.
So, the choice of order of my closing ships is just a matter of how much I want to "gamble" with the outcome of my precious Orca. If I send it through early on, I will be more certain of the distance. But the average on both ways is the same!
I see no new "strategy" here. Risk-averse FC's will use heavy ships at the beginning, risk-friendly ones will use them at the end....(again, only considering the time it take to close a wh into an empty sytem). Here we have the discussing of the influence of RNG on gameplay quality again, I suppose.

Would appreciate it if someone gives me some insight on this.

Cheers
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#1059 - 2014-08-18 13:43:03 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way.


And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1060 - 2014-08-18 13:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way.


And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic.




further back in the tread are long discourses as to why other than highly limited uses of the RNG are extremely destructive to immersion and motivation in game play.

In it"s simplest form If one EVER uses the method, to determine win or loss then, one forces people to realise that their efforts, are secondary to the design of the game, and they can never "beat the odds".
Basically one has introduces aversion therapy to cure people of game play.Shocked

Your example DOES use the RNG but the loss will be removed from the event, and your skills can reverse your bad fortune.

Whilst this, the Luck component Is DIRECTLY connected to the event of your loss. strongly reinforcing the message that you were stupid to believe you could ever have any long term effect or influence on the game. Bad luck, suck it up, see you in after a couple of months on the grinding treadmill to try again.

Could one think of more destructive behaviour by a games company?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE