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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#1061 - 2014-08-18 14:00:30 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way.


And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic.




further back in the tread are long discourses as to why other than highly limited uses of the RNG are extremely destructive to immersion and motivation in game play.

In it"s simplest form If one EVER uses the method, to determine win or loss then, one forces people to realise that their efforts, are secondary to the design of the game, and they can never "beat the odds".
Basically one has introduces aversion therapy to cure people of game play.Shocked

Your example DOES use the RNG but the loss will be removed from the event, and your skills can reverse your bad fortune.

Whilst this, the Luck component Is DIRECTLY connected to the event of your loss. strongly reinforcing the message that you were stupid to believe you could ever have any long term effect or influence on the game. Bad luck, suck it up, see you in after a couple of months on the grinding treadmill to try again.

Could one think of more destructive behaviour by a games company?


I don't buy that. Spawning X distance from a hole does not equate to instant loss. Your ship does not instantly self destruct. It is *at risk* from other players.

You can *do* something to mitigate that risk.

If you aren't prepared to do those things such as support your cap with additional pilots, then I would venture that your decision to jump an unsupported cap into a random mechanic was a bad one. I would argue the same that a battleship pilot ill prepared for a flight back through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space made the same poor decision.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1062 - 2014-08-18 14:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way.


And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic.




further back in the tread are long discourses as to why other than highly limited uses of the RNG are extremely destructive to immersion and motivation in game play.

In it"s simplest form If one EVER uses the method, to determine win or loss then, one forces people to realise that their efforts, are secondary to the design of the game, and they can never "beat the odds".
Basically one has introduces aversion therapy to cure people of game play.Shocked

Your example DOES use the RNG but the loss will be removed from the event, and your skills can reverse your bad fortune.

Whilst this, the Luck component Is DIRECTLY connected to the event of your loss. strongly reinforcing the message that you were stupid to believe you could ever have any long term effect or influence on the game. Bad luck, suck it up, see you in after a couple of months on the grinding treadmill to try again.

Could one think of more destructive behaviour by a games company?


I don't buy that. Spawning X distance from a hole does not equate to instant loss. Your ship does not instantly self destruct. It is *at risk* from other players.

You can *do* something to mitigate that risk.

If you aren't prepared to do those things such as support your cap with additional pilots, then I would venture that your decision to jump an unsupported cap into a random mechanic was a bad one. I would argue the same that a battleship pilot ill prepared for a flight back through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space made the same poor decision.


you need to think in more than two dimensions, remember you will come out at a location within a sphere, and assistance will spawn somewhere else in that sphere, and depending on where you spawn, when jumping into a hostile fleet, it is PURELY luck as to whether you live or die. Because do not forget, one will be unable to jump back or jump away if you are webbed and scrammed.
Good luck burning back to the hole with a triple webbed Orca.
But the conclusion is pre ordained isn't it?

So you jump and play Russian roulette, or do not play the odds. and Pos up until the hole closes on it's own.

This affects Orcas Just as much as Capitals, and there is just not the support in lower class holes.

oh or one can jump endless battleships through instead under fire, What fun.Roll
great choicesWhat?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Agrippa Arkaral
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1063 - 2014-08-18 14:33:08 UTC
Posting to check kill count
Tarikan
The Black Crow Bandits
Brave Collective
#1064 - 2014-08-18 14:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarikan
What I got while I was at the townhall as a general consensus was that Fozzie understood our feedback, but the change is going in one way or another, and only after significant data is gathered will CCP determine whether they should revert, or change the changes happening in Hyperion.

I personally do not like the action being taken here, but if CCP want to play that way then they likely will lose some subscriptions. I'll stay in Wormholes, I'll continue having fun with my friends...but this change isn't going to be a good one in my opinion. I and possibly others within the Wormhole community will decide to almost never use Capital offensively or to roll, in the end i forsee less fights happening, but I can be wrong.

In any case, let us see where this goes, maybe CCP will realize the error of their ways, or maybe us wormholers will see the reason why Fozzie is so adamant about this change.

Overall the wormhole changes are awesome, I really like this release, but this mass-spawn change still sticks out like a sore thumb to me. The effect-rebalance is another discussion, but Cat Vars will be the new Black Hole, in terms of people living there at least.

I have my trust in Corbexx to continue to represent the wormhole community, hopefully something can be done sooner rather than later.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#1065 - 2014-08-18 14:52:47 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

you need to think in more than two dimensions, remember you will come out at a location within a sphere, and assistance will spawn somewhere else in that sphere, and depending on where you spawn, when jumping into a hostile fleet, it is PURELY luck as to whether you live or die. Because do not forget, one will be unable to jump back or jump away if you are webbed and scrammed.
Good luck burning back to the hole with a triple webbed Orca.
But the conclusion is pre ordained isn't it?

So you jump and play Russian roulette, or do not play the odds. and Pos up until the hole closes on it's own.

This affects Orcas Just as much as Capitals, and there is just not the support in lower class holes.

oh or one can jump endless battleships through instead under fire, What fun.Roll
great choicesWhat?


I get it. Cap combat on wormholes is significantly impacted. It is, without a doubt to me, a specific intention to promote more subcap combat. Just look at the changes in total. Frigate holes, longer and more connected wormhole chains, massive risk to capitals jumping through wormholes. Is it better in the long run? I don't know, I guess that remains to be seen, but I have little doubt there is intent to strongly encourage people to use smaller ships more frequently as well as deal with the organically created holes and chains vs. opening/closing them ourselves. If that makes you POS up, oh well, that's your game. I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1066 - 2014-08-18 14:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

you need to think in more than two dimensions, remember you will come out at a location within a sphere, and assistance will spawn somewhere else in that sphere, and depending on where you spawn, when jumping into a hostile fleet, it is PURELY luck as to whether you live or die. Because do not forget, one will be unable to jump back or jump away if you are webbed and scrammed.
Good luck burning back to the hole with a triple webbed Orca.
But the conclusion is pre ordained isn't it?

So you jump and play Russian roulette, or do not play the odds. and Pos up until the hole closes on it's own.

This affects Orcas Just as much as Capitals, and there is just not the support in lower class holes.

oh or one can jump endless battleships through instead under fire, What fun.Roll
great choicesWhat?


I get it. Cap combat on wormholes is significantly impacted. It is, without a doubt to me, a specific intention to promote more subcap combat. Just look at the changes in total. Frigate holes, longer and more connected wormhole chains, massive risk to capitals jumping through wormholes. Is it better in the long run? I don't know, I guess that remains to be seen, but I have little doubt there is intent to strongly encourage people to use smaller ships more frequently as well as deal with the organically created holes and chains vs. opening/closing them ourselves. If that makes you POS up, oh well, that's your game. I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship.


Not my game, I want stuff to shoot, this one change though is just going to make it less likely. For oh so many reasons.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Steven Hackett
NOMADS.
#1067 - 2014-08-18 15:19:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).

The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk.
To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km.
At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.

I like this post.. It tells us a few different details..

It tells us that Fozzie doesn't have any WH experience to talk about. It tells us that Fozzie can't manage to read feedback from what must be considered the experts on w-space. It tells us that Fozzie is unable to come up with any good game-designs to meet their goals and is therefore irrelevant as a game designer and asset for CCP and its customers.

If you believe that a dread sitting on a WH is, as you say "complete safety" then how long will it be before Titans and supers are stuck in space for 5 minuts after jumping? I mean, they are completely safe as it is now right, they can just simply warp to their POS?

Your logic is worse than what I read from random NS'ers and Highsec carebears, your suggestion is utterly ******** and you fail to even recognize the danger in having a 9 billion ships floating in space for everyone to shoot..

You are completely ignoring the fact that EVE is a multiplayer game and that your safety is dictated by your enemy. I can't count the amount of times I have followed a rolling capital into its home to kill it. I wonder if he considered himselv being completely safe before or after he was in his pod in Amarr? If you can't comprehend anything as simple as that, what the **** are you doing suggesting changes in the first place, and why the **** did anyone hire you as a game designer?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1068 - 2014-08-18 15:29:05 UTC
Steven Hackett wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).

The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk.
To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km.
At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.

I like this post.. It tells us a few different details..

It tells us that Fozzie doesn't have any WH experience to talk about. It tells us that Fozzie can't manage to read feedback from what must be considered the experts on w-space. It tells us that Fozzie is unable to come up with any good game-designs to meet their goals and is therefore irrelevant as a game designer and asset for CCP and its customers.

If you believe that a dread sitting on a WH is, as you say "complete safety" then how long will it be before Titans and supers are stuck in space for 5 minuts after jumping? I mean, they are completely safe as it is now right, they can just simply warp to their POS?

Your logic is worse than what I read from random NS'ers and Highsec carebears, your suggestion is utterly ******** and you fail to even recognize the danger in having a 9 billion ships floating in space for everyone to shoot..

You are completely ignoring the fact that EVE is a multiplayer game and that your safety is dictated by your enemy. I can't count the amount of times I have followed a rolling capital into its home to kill it. I wonder if he considered himselv being completely safe before or after he was in his pod in Amarr? If you can't comprehend anything as simple as that, what the **** are you doing suggesting changes in the first place, and why the **** did anyone hire you as a game designer?


A little hard, but the sentiments regarding the validity of the idea are a echo of the general opinion.
remember that CCP is a company with employees senior to Fozzie who are in a position of greater authority.
I find it hard to believe that he would not realise what a clusterfuck this is.
But if not, well what more can be said.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Steven Hackett
NOMADS.
#1069 - 2014-08-18 15:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Steven Hackett
I wrote a post here about how Fozzie is shitting on the community, repeating mistakes etc..

But all I rly have to say is: Fozzie, please go read Hilmars apology, then come back and explain to us why you believe Hilmar was wrong and what the new plan for CCP is.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1070 - 2014-08-18 16:13:21 UTC
Glad to see the line is still being held on this important issue, despite the vocal minority posting in this thread. It reinforces that you're able to make the tough decisions in spite of a panic-stricken, emotionally-charged wall of feedback. This candor will be necessary in the months ahead.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Aiyshimin
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#1071 - 2014-08-18 16:25:21 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.

CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.

Can you still roll holes? Yes.
Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.

And that's the long and short of it.


Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment implementation, then not much to say to you is there.
and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different.
This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance.

THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK!

Do you actually understand yet?

Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun.
Evil


You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1072 - 2014-08-18 16:29:45 UTC
Well as expected Fozzie didn't listen. He tweaked numbers but that's not enough. During the round table he put his points across very well and we can agree on his points. But this change is not the way and it has been told to him by nearly everyone who lives in W-space.

This change doesn't affect my corp as we are big enough and experienced enough to adapt to the change. But man you just made a tedious eve career even more tedious for the sake of the minority. I mean spending 5-8 hours scanning Long chains then rolling and repeating again and again to then get one good fight a WEEK (if your lucky)

I fear for the small corps just killed by this change. More dead sticks on moons

Im just waiting for the announcement that you can now claim Sov in WH's

So Much Space

Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1073 - 2014-08-18 16:37:14 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.

CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.

Can you still roll holes? Yes.
Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.

And that's the long and short of it.


Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment implementation, then not much to say to you is there.
and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different.
This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance.

THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK!

Do you actually understand yet?

Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun.
Evil


You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does.


In the current pvp meta for capitals If your a solo cap you are dead the moment you siege/triage because of the sheer amount of fire power and neuts people field. refitting is pretty much a requirement to survive unless you can curb stomp them before you lose the cap. With this change you now have a very high chance to be out of refitting range of the other capital's such to the point that even slow boating is pointless (If they have webs you even more screwed)

So essentially your entire capital fleet's life is in the hands of a dice roll and whether Fortuna is feeling bitchy today

So Much Space

Ettig Grunar
Hidden Baguette
X877.
#1074 - 2014-08-18 16:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ettig Grunar
Faren Shalni wrote:
Well as expected Fozzie didn't listen. He tweaked numbers but that's not enough. During the round table he put his points across very well and we can agree on his points. But this change is not the way and it has been told to him by nearly everyone who lives in W-space.

This change doesn't affect my corp as we are big enough and experienced enough to adapt to the change. But man you just made a tedious eve career even more tedious for the sake of the minority. I mean spending 5-8 hours scanning Long chains then rolling and repeating again and again to then get one good fight a WEEK (if your lucky)

I fear for the small corps just killed by this change. More dead sticks on moons

Im just waiting for the announcement that you can now claim Sov in WH's


/totally agree AttentionAttention

Aiyshimin wrote:

You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does.


if we play the same game, u have no idea about jumping and/or especially rolling a wh with caps!
this comment about "randomness" and "beeing bad ingame" is so twisted, wrong and nonsense Ugh... i dont even wanna gonna deeper into explaining myself here /facepalm AttentionAttention
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1075 - 2014-08-18 17:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.

CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.

Can you still roll holes? Yes.
Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.

And that's the long and short of it.


Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment implementation, then not much to say to you is there.
and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different.
This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance.

THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK!

Do you actually understand yet?

Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun.
Evil


You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does.



Please explain to me when the same mechanic is applied to cynos and your fleet is scattered across a large area on landing into combat, and then tell me you died because you are bad.

Fun right?

If it is good enough that luck is now the determinant of survival for us, it is good enough for you too.
Lets see how long it takes for you to complain...........

If the defending corp had a fast deploy mobile unit, that did this to incoming fleets, I would shake my head a bit at the crazyness, but it would be perfectly acceptable as Players NOT LUCK decided my fate. Hopefully this would of course be available to all space and gate and wormhole type effects. But it still would be a poor idea.

I personally believe that the lazyness of the idea, replacing thought and design with the concept of letting luck decide our fates, Highly insulting, and although it may seem to be only a minor effect to you, it makes the entire game valueless, as we now have NO control of our fate. And do you really think it will stop here?

Quote:
Fozzie ask Hilmar how he would feel when he lost that first Thorax if he had lost it to luck rather than his own actions?


The game would have never made it out of Beta.
And deservedly so.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Agrippa Arkaral
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1076 - 2014-08-18 18:09:49 UTC
Thread in one image:

http://i.imgur.com/oF3ehqY.png
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1077 - 2014-08-18 18:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
I leave the reply to the above gif to ones own imagination. But Luck is involved.RollEvil

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Des Jardin
Aperture Harmonics
#1078 - 2014-08-18 20:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Des Jardin
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.

We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).

The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk.
To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km.
At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.

This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.


CCP Fozzie:

What metric does CCP intend to use to determine whether the spawn distance modification is a positive change to the game?

"Good against remotes is one thing.  Good against the living ... that's something else."

Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#1079 - 2014-08-18 20:14:31 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship.


Like, say, uh...a T3? Just think: wormhole corps planning strategies that carefully pick a few high-mass ships or a single capital and forming a low-mass fleet around it instead. Madness, I know.
Nolak Ataru
Unsanitary Landfill
#1080 - 2014-08-18 20:22:56 UTC
Edgar Strangelove wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship.


Like, say, uh...a T3? Just think: wormhole corps planning strategies that carefully pick a few high-mass ships or a single capital and forming a low-mass fleet around it instead. Madness, I know.


If you take just a T3 and Guardian gang out and someone drops a carrier and/or a dread with a T3 fleet on you, you will wish pretty damn quickly that you brought your own carrier.

I can't wait for CCP to implement the same mass-based changes to cynosural fields and then watch all the null-tards who post here under the impression that they know more about wormholes than, say, AHARM, NOHO, or HK, turn around and blast it as a bad change for null.