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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#161 - 2014-07-29 16:23:20 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Impressively scattered discussion so far. I can respond to a few things directly:

Anything related to the tournament - the tournament has no impact on game balance decisions. We handle tournament balance using tournament rules and I don't think we would ever postpone balance changes based on the tournament schedule. We want to try and make sure tournament participants are informed of incoming balance changes but we will never make compromises to the whole player base because of a tournament.

Battleships are in a good place - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer insulting me he mentioned MWD cap use on BS which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.

Tempest - like watching this discussion, happy to see that a significant chunk of people seem to prefer it the way it is now.

Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.

Keep it comin


why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything.
Rheba
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2014-07-29 16:25:12 UTC
Misaniovent wrote:
What about the Sacrilege? Currently the Deimos does significantly more damage and tanks about as well. What about recon balance? The Curse and the Pilgrim are both in desperate need of attention.


This, It gets a resist bonus but has 2 less low slots than the zealot. I try to fit one every now and then and it just hurts my brain. All i ever wanted in this game is a good armor tanking missile cruiser.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#163 - 2014-07-29 16:25:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.

Keep it comin

How do you feel about breaking out the sentry bonus to hitpoints and damage from the base hitpoints and damage bonus so that sentries can be tweaked separately from small / medium / heavy drones?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#164 - 2014-07-29 16:25:47 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

How about just plain buff in EHP?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2014-07-29 16:26:00 UTC
Dr Ngo wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?



Not that enthused here. The Mael is a dedicated 8-gun shield beast and the Phoon is a wonderful Frankenstein monster but there is something about the pest that just feels unique. The utility highs and ambiguous slot layout make it feel kind of like a pirate faction bs lite that gives it a clear identity.

If it's going to be changed then I think it would be better to push it a bit more toward the new geddon and tweak some stuff to give it a bonus that really makes that extra mid slot pop when you choose to armor tank it.



Yet you simply do nto see them around. Within the last 1 year is the single ship I have least seen around. Not a single time outr alliacne killed one.. because they are more rare than the dodo.

Being unique does nto pay if you are horrible.


The ship is simpy outmatched completely bu typhoon and malestrom. I do nto think 8/4/7 is the right way to fix it, but as it is is a HORRIBLE and inneficient ship. So comepsnate on soft stats what it lacks on slow layout and damage it would need to weight less than ANY battleship (includign the mordus legion and machariel).

The typhoon can outtank, out move, out accelerate, outdamage our project the tempest. The maelstrom takes competely the arti platform role or the super tank role. So how do we make the tempest USEFUL? Give it a purpose?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2014-07-29 16:26:09 UTC
This is getting dam stupid. Again I Am getting hit with a drone neft bat due to BLOCs in Nullsec heavy CSM moaning about how they cant blob harder because of drones.

Before the Kronos patch I had perfect t2 sentry drones skills. After the patch, I did not. Now Comes the next patch on the line and again I am getting the neft to my sentry drones again because the nullsec CSM blocs complaining. DID YOU SEE ANYBODY ELSE COMPLAIN? How about the likes of me who is not part of a block of any kind? Who PvP's in small gang and solo? Where the ISHTAR sentry drones has real trouble hitting anything smaller than a battlecruiser? And oh great, you are going to neft it's speed too. Great, Now my Armor fit is even more Sexually Molested in the anus region.

To end my rant before I get a forum ban.

DO NOT CHANGE THE ISHTAR ONE BIT.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#167 - 2014-07-29 16:26:18 UTC
If anything I wouldn't mind seeing one of the tempest's lows get moved up to mid or a hit point tweak.

Moving a mid to low makes it a less compelling Typhoon.

RE Ishtar I like the new small, measured changes approach. Will be a good habit to get into and make the full reworks more significant. #RiotPlaybook

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2014-07-29 16:27:11 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).

Where's the problem?



adn wich other hac deals 700 dps at 40 km?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#169 - 2014-07-29 16:27:12 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Impressively scattered discussion so far. I can respond to a few things directly:

Anything related to the tournament - the tournament has no impact on game balance decisions. We handle tournament balance using tournament rules and I don't think we would ever postpone balance changes based on the tournament schedule. We want to try and make sure tournament participants are informed of incoming balance changes but we will never make compromises to the whole player base because of a tournament.

Battleships are in a good place - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer insulting me he mentioned MWD cap use on BS which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.

Tempest - like watching this discussion, happy to see that a significant chunk of people seem to prefer it the way it is now.

Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.

Keep it comin


why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything.


against other battleships :P ... part of the problem is T3's ... they do everything better at a similar price..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#170 - 2014-07-29 16:28:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).

Where's the problem?



adn wich other hac deals 700 dps at 40 km?


cerb ... mainly cos HAM range is the same as torps..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2014-07-29 16:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Rise wrote:

"Battleships are not in a good place, you crazy Rise" - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated...


It's irrelevant whether they are good in their own class as we are playing a sandbox MMO. They have virtually no advantages over smaller combat ships in the game What?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#172 - 2014-07-29 16:28:24 UTC
Quote:
why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything.


If you read the text you quoted you will see that I said battleships as a whole getting used isn't what I said was in a good place, rather that battleships are in a pretty good place relative to other battleships.

Also, even though you've been very unlucky not to see them at all, I can assure you they are used for things.

@ccp_rise
Corey Lean
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#173 - 2014-07-29 16:28:34 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything.

He meant in a good place compared to each other within the class. No matter than no one can use a shield BS fleet anymore without getting obliterated by bombs.

Ishtars and interceptors online continues
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#174 - 2014-07-29 16:30:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.


I think the community understand this. CCP has aligned the development process to support more frequent releases that allow an iterative approach to balance changes.

However, while small chances might be bandaid fixes, the ishtar still is the only HAC that gets multiple bonuses to battleship sized weapons. So while there are small, iterative changes, is the long term vision to make the ishtar deviate from the rest of the HAC class? Or can we expect Muninns to get a bonus to 800mm autocannons?

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#175 - 2014-07-29 16:31:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything.


If you read the text you quoted you will see that I said battleships as a whole getting used isn't what I said was in a good place, rather that battleships are in a pretty good place relative to other battleships.

Also, even though you've been very unlucky not to see them at all, I can assure you they are used for things.


eh. if you count highsec pve and addled nullsec people, I guess they are a bit. pls fix T3s and caps so they can be relevant again.
Rheba
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2014-07-29 16:32:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
why do you think battleships are in a good place? I never see them used for anything.


If you read the text you quoted you will see that I said battleships as a whole getting used isn't what I said was in a good place, rather that battleships are in a pretty good place relative to other battleships.

Also, even though you've been very unlucky not to see them at all, I can assure you they are used for things.


If you type the word Sacrilege i would be happy just to know that you know it exists
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#177 - 2014-07-29 16:32:24 UTC
Rise .. any thoughts on changing the optimal range bonus too falloff instead? .. on the ishtar

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#178 - 2014-07-29 16:34:27 UTC
Ishtar - how many times?

x Ishtar in fleet - always, convo, i'm training for Ishtar.

Its an "ishtar fleet with scimi support". They can apply DPS at every range, and of any chosen type. More than the Tempest you propose at massively better range.

Please god nerf it into oblivion like the:

  • 'Hurricane' (more fart in a hurricane now)
  • Vagabond, slower than its T1 counterpart - 20x the price.
  • Munnin, crap dps, crap range, zero tank - amazing that anyone would use it over the Ishtar.
  • Cynabal ... it gets there fast, it kites, it ... applies crap dps until it dies or it runs.


Holy cow - why so gentle with THE MOST OVERPOWERED SHIP ever. It eclipses the Tengu of old, it transcends 90% of the battleship line. There is nothing else flying thats competitive. 5 of these vs 5 of anything? The only opposition is another 5 of these.

Find a 3/10, 4/10. 5/10. 6/10 DED, inside. Guarantee, an Ishtar. Covert Besegied Mordu site, Ishtar!!! Mission in your Ishtar! PVE or PVP ... yes - you created a bettter OP Tengu.

Every single player I know is training or using one of these, every ALT of every single player is training or using one of these.

Broken, so fix it with a sledgehammer like everything else, not poke it a bit.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2014-07-29 16:36:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Impressively scattered discussion so far. I can respond to a few things directly:

Anything related to the tournament - the tournament has no impact on game balance decisions. We handle tournament balance using tournament rules and I don't think we would ever postpone balance changes based on the tournament schedule. We want to try and make sure tournament participants are informed of incoming balance changes but we will never make compromises to the whole player base because of a tournament.

"Battleships are not in a good place, you crazy Rise" - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer's insults he mentioned MWD cap use on BS being a problem which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.

Tempest - like watching this discussion, happy to see that a significant chunk of people seem to prefer it the way it is now.

Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.

Keep it comin


Regarding within the class changes why not remove the domi's bonus to lights and mediums so it is not so insane in regards to other battleships?

make it need dual web like the other ones or something.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#180 - 2014-07-29 16:37:04 UTC
Besides, BS are not used a lot anymore, because as soon as the game notices a BS roaming around in 00 or Low sec, they scramble to destroy it. It''s sometimes ridiculous to read chats about it. So, in my opinion not the BS are the problem, but the general attitude and behavior of the players. Again. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.