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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Author
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#141 - 2014-07-29 15:59:03 UTC
Cherry Yeyo wrote:
Its so easy to bomb and wipe out an entire fleet

I'm sure you did it many times, wouldn't be a problem to link your killboard. Or would it?
Bomber were there for ages, and for ages there were large BS fleets.
If a fleet has a proper anti-bomber support, it's close to impossible to bomb them.
Blueclaws
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#142 - 2014-07-29 16:00:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


I think it has good versitility as it is and that is key to it.
Maybe add one or two turret hard points?
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#143 - 2014-07-29 16:01:09 UTC
The ishtar is still going to be way OP. As mister Vee couple of posts above stated, that you could remove 2 sentries of it and it still would be used is a good point. Especially with the lowslot drone tracking enchancer coming. Whitch will effectively just neglate the nerf on shield ishtars.

Make all the cruiser size droneboats have medium drone bonuses. Not heavy nor sentry. Like Gila, but with 5 drones. Having BS sized weapon bonuses to aply BS damage and range to a cruiser just makes no sence whatsoever.

Gila was a good example of how the medium drones are actually good now. So take the experience of this and imply to Ishtars and navy vexors. Then the Domi would be OP fleetship again over everything else, but I feel you aint got what it takes to change sentries alltogether.

Leave the tempest alone! Is currently iirc the only BS with 2 utility highs. 8-5-6 Is a good slot layout. Just tune the bonuses a bit.

Also with the TE nerf you nerfed the entire minmatar boatline. So pls fix this, so projectiles get useful again.

Bronya Boga
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2014-07-29 16:03:07 UTC
Hi Rise

Have you considered giving the munin a few extra mids? While it is tagged as a shield ship its extremely hard to use it in small gang PVP because of he 3 mids.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2014-07-29 16:04:53 UTC
Hey Rise, any work on making the medium sentries we discussed at Fanfest?
Duckslayer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2014-07-29 16:04:54 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
why would you balance something in the middle of a running tournament? Does the new release cycle make it impossible to ship changes between releases?


not empty quoting.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
Local Is Primary
#147 - 2014-07-29 16:05:43 UTC
still sad the baddon and apoc havent seen some love mainly with capacitor and fitting (and damage for apoc, but thats another story)

also still think the zealot needs bigger cargobay (my coercer got bigger cargo than the zealots 240m3 cargobay) and a flight of small drones

otherwise the changes look stellar.

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!

Duckslayer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2014-07-29 16:06:11 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
The ishtar is still going to be way OP. As mister Vee couple of posts above stated, that you could remove 2 sentries of it and it still would be used is a good point. Especially with the lowslot drone tracking enchancer coming. Whitch will effectively just neglate the nerf on shield ishtars.

Make all the cruiser size droneboats have medium drone bonuses. Not heavy nor sentry. Like Gila, but with 5 drones. Having BS sized weapon bonuses to aply BS damage and range to a cruiser just makes no sence whatsoever.

Gila was a good example of how the medium drones are actually good now. So take the experience of this and imply to Ishtars and navy vexors. Then the Domi would be OP fleetship again over everything else, but I feel you aint got what it takes to change sentries alltogether.

Leave the tempest alone! Is currently iirc the only BS with 2 utility highs. 8-5-6 Is a good slot layout. Just tune the bonuses a bit.

Also with the TE nerf you nerfed the entire minmatar boatline. So pls fix this, so projectiles get useful again.



Pretty sure the lowslot TE for drones is out already, or i fit something hideous to my ishtar yesterday
Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#149 - 2014-07-29 16:07:01 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Cherry Yeyo wrote:
Its so easy to bomb and wipe out an entire fleet

I'm sure you did it many times, wouldn't be a problem to link your killboard. Or would it?
Bomber were there for ages, and for ages there were large BS fleets.
If a fleet has a proper anti-bomber support, it's close to impossible to bomb them.


It's never impossible to bomb a fleet, difficult yes, but not impossible. Bombers are incredibly low-risk and cheap to fly while the impact they have is completely disproportional. Despite my love of bombers and obliterating BS fleets they have had (in my opinion) a negative impact on the game by virtually eliminating the BS class of ships from the battlefield. Similarly for Tier 3's in fact.

The only BS fleets you tend to see now are Navy Apocs, Tempest Fleets and Megas (due in part to their low signature radius) and Apocs (cheap Napoc to counter Ishtars). Virtually every other BS hull (barring boutique fleet setups) is relegated to be mothballed when bombers are so prevalent. I know this isn't a bomber thread but I hope it is being looked at.
Akasha Mayan
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#150 - 2014-07-29 16:07:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26


We will think this is far too gentle, because it is far too gentle. A month to a fix that won't have an effect, then 2 months for you to realise this, then another month to decide what, another month to actually do another fix is too slow. We log in (or don't) on a daily basis to not bother taking fights (against ishtars) that we don't need to take but might, if they weren't so ridiculous.

Please just fix it now.
Duckslayer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2014-07-29 16:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Duckslayer
also, arent these adjustments database tweaks? Why do we have to wait a month for them to come into effect. Literally change something at DT tomorrow. See how it goes. Adjust again in a weeks time. Add "Agile development" to your CV.

All this fannying about to change database values is remedial
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#152 - 2014-07-29 16:11:15 UTC
Duckslayer wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Duckslayer wrote:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/5yUfi0k.png[/img]


Geddon seems totally balanced yo.


How about you put 800's in your cap booster instead of 25s unless you are tying to make it missleading.

after looking at that fit further I have no idea what you are trying to get across with that? No skills either being used.

Its a ship that with 6 days of training you can get in.
Its a noble idea by my alliance to get newbies into something useful for cap fights almost instantly.
The fit gets fed cap by carriers, but you can put 800s in the cap booster too.
Its supposed to be a no skill fit
Look how ridiculously useful it is in comparison to any other 6 day old battleship fit you care to work



My point was more "CCP Rise is terrible at balance" as that is his baby right there. A bit cryptic im sorry


Ah, thanks for the reply and clearing up the confusion. Yes if that is something a 6 day old character can get into that is a little out of whack.
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#153 - 2014-07-29 16:14:32 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:

Make all the cruiser size droneboats have medium drone bonuses. Not heavy nor sentry. Like Gila, but with 5 drones. Having BS sized weapon bonuses to aply BS damage and range to a cruiser just makes no sence whatsoever.


Do you really want the vexor, navy vexor and the ishtar to be virtually the same? Senturies are not really a BS weapon system but I agree that their damage projection kind of makes them seem like one.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#154 - 2014-07-29 16:14:43 UTC
How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).

Where's the problem?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Misaniovent
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2014-07-29 16:16:02 UTC
What about the Sacrilege? Currently the Deimos does significantly more damage and tanks about as well. What about recon balance? The Curse and the Pilgrim are both in desperate need of attention.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#156 - 2014-07-29 16:17:19 UTC
Sister Bliss wrote:
The only BS fleets you tend to see now...

What you see now may have very little to do with bombers. For example, it's really annoying to make 10 to 20 jumps to get a fight while in a battleship. Why, if you can use Ishtar instead?
My point stands - bombers and battleships have a very long mutual history. And now we have MJD.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#157 - 2014-07-29 16:17:31 UTC
The fact that the Ishtar is the only cruiser-sized ship with bonuses to large weapons is absurd and unbalanced. It is essentially a super ABC without any of the penalties associated with glass-cannon ABCs, much greater velocity, smaller sigRad... it's absurdly OP.

There are a lot of options that can be explored when it comes to Sentry Drones and the Ishtar. I've listed a few ideas below.

Change the Heavy Drone velocity and optimal bonus to include all drones except sentries. Make it velocity only.

Change the sentry tracking bonus per level of HAC skill to include all drones except sentries.

Reduce Ishtar drone bay size. Alternatively, make sentries twice as large. WTF, Ishtar drone bay is as big as the Domi's.

Double the bandwidth requirement of Sentries. Increase the available bandwidth of ships designed to field sentries. Pilots will still be limited to 5 drones by skills, unless they are in a capital ship with Drone Control Units fitted.

Bandwidth is an entirely under-utilized resource. There is no real reason not to use it as an actual limiting factor, rather than a pseudo-resource that almost never matters. We've already seen a little of this with Amarr ships.

Personally, when I first heard of sentry drones years ago, I thought they were like an automated turret that would work without any oversight. Not very intuitive.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Duckslayer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2014-07-29 16:19:07 UTC
Isnt Gila new FOTM over Ishtar anyway?
Dr Ngo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2014-07-29 16:19:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?



Not that enthused here. The Mael is a dedicated 8-gun shield beast and the Phoon is a wonderful Frankenstein monster but there is something about the pest that just feels unique. The utility highs and ambiguous slot layout make it feel kind of like a pirate faction bs lite that gives it a clear identity.

If it's going to be changed then I think it would be better to push it a bit more toward the new geddon and tweak some stuff to give it a bonus that really makes that extra mid slot pop when you choose to armor tank it.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#160 - 2014-07-29 16:21:40 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Impressively scattered discussion so far. I can respond to a few things directly:

Anything related to the tournament - the tournament has no impact on game balance decisions. We handle tournament balance using tournament rules and I don't think we would ever postpone balance changes based on the tournament schedule. We want to try and make sure tournament participants are informed of incoming balance changes but we will never make compromises to the whole player base because of a tournament.

"Battleships are not in a good place, you crazy Rise" - an important distinction here is that I meant battleships are in a relatively good place WITHIN the class. Whether or not they are healthy relative to other classes is more complicated, but if there's issues there (because of bombers for instance) we would more likely want to deal with that problem from the other direction (by making changes to bombers for instance) rather than changing every BS to compensate. Between Duckslayer's insults he mentioned MWD cap use on BS being a problem which I agree with and I may try to get a change for that in shortly.

Tempest - like watching this discussion, happy to see that a significant chunk of people seem to prefer it the way it is now.

Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.

Keep it comin

@ccp_rise