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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#381 - 2014-07-29 22:32:06 UTC
Goochan derp wrote:
using the argument that sentries can be killed as a downside is kind of lame when your talking about a ship that can hold 3 sets of them. if your going to put forth the effort to kill that many drones you have probably already lost the fight. each garde2 has over 6000 raw hp with max skills so that's 30,000 hp per set. assuming an ehp value of 45,000 for the ishtar that adds up to 135,000 hp you have to kill, assuming you kill every drone and the ship... all while doing a meager 1800 m/s. sure your drones die eventually but they are essentially tripling your ehp to do so.

the fact that sentries cant move can also be seen as an advantage, if your kiting away from your enemy your essentially laying a big fat land mine in your wake whenever you deploy them. what downside is there to this? should my fleet stop and kill the drones before continuing?

the problem with the ishtar is that its simply the total package. it has everything you can possibly want in a ship.

the way to bring it in line with other ships is to start taking away its features one at a time, the problem is, where to start?

i think even if the optimal+tracking bonus was removed completely it would still be op, sentries have great range even before that bonus, and not every ship that uses large weapon systems needs a tracking bonus to be effective either.

ive spent way too much time writing this post and i don't know what else to do about this ship. ccp dosen't have it easy when it comes to ship balance, that's for sure.


It's a downside.

You cannot remain 100% effective while your drones are being killed. We can talk when everyone has guns that can be shot off one by one. While 6000 EHP is 6000EHP, there is no way to change their resist profile, and being stationary damage applies to them really well, so if you are bringing something to kill them, it's pretty easy to know exactly what to use.

The ship carries multiple waves, but ECM or Damps on the drone ship can curb much of the effectiveness of that.

There is no 100% counter, but there are valid tactics that will make killing them much easier than just charging up and attempting to blasterize them.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2014-07-29 22:38:12 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
How much further do you want to nerf the Isthar EHP? A Shield Ratting Buffer Ishtar has around 23k EHP with a 700 DPS at 45 km range (and you can honestly only really tank Serp and Guri with it; Angel, Blood and Sansha are not tankable with it in most cases. An Armor Ishtar has around 500 DPS with Gardes at 45 km range (no idea on the HP, as I don't use such a crappy ship).

Where's the problem?



adn wich other hac deals 700 dps at 40 km?


cerb ... mainly cos HAM range is the same as torps..



IShtar will apply all of that damage even to a frigate. The cerb will applya fraction of that most of time.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
captain foivos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#383 - 2014-07-29 22:39:17 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


This is why carriers and sentries are a bad combination. Sentries have great tracking and damage, and with a carrier, the downsides are completely irrelevant. Who cares if a flight of drones dies or gets left behind when you have a hundred more flights sitting in your drone hangar?
Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2014-07-29 22:40:11 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Goochan derp wrote:
using the argument that sentries can be killed as a downside is kind of lame when your talking about a ship that can hold 3 sets of them. if your going to put forth the effort to kill that many drones you have probably already lost the fight. each garde2 has over 6000 raw hp with max skills so that's 30,000 hp per set. assuming an ehp value of 45,000 for the ishtar that adds up to 135,000 hp you have to kill, assuming you kill every drone and the ship... all while doing a meager 1800 m/s. sure your drones die eventually but they are essentially tripling your ehp to do so.

the fact that sentries cant move can also be seen as an advantage, if your kiting away from your enemy your essentially laying a big fat land mine in your wake whenever you deploy them. what downside is there to this? should my fleet stop and kill the drones before continuing?

the problem with the ishtar is that its simply the total package. it has everything you can possibly want in a ship.

the way to bring it in line with other ships is to start taking away its features one at a time, the problem is, where to start?

i think even if the optimal+tracking bonus was removed completely it would still be op, sentries have great range even before that bonus, and not every ship that uses large weapon systems needs a tracking bonus to be effective either.

ive spent way too much time writing this post and i don't know what else to do about this ship. ccp dosen't have it easy when it comes to ship balance, that's for sure.


It's a downside.

You cannot remain 100% effective while your drones are being killed. We can talk when everyone has guns that can be shot off one by one. While 6000 EHP is 6000EHP, there is no way to change their resist profile, and being stationary damage applies to them really well, so if you are bringing something to kill them, it's pretty easy to know exactly what to use.

The ship carries multiple waves, but ECM or Damps on the drone ship can curb much of the effectiveness of that.

There is no 100% counter, but there are valid tactics that will make killing them much easier than just charging up and attempting to blasterize them.


their ehp is higher than 6000, they have some resists but 6000 RAW hp, their EHP is probably more like 7500 or so but i dont know how to calculate that in pyfa so i didnt include it.

being stationary also helps them apply their damage well, its quite easy to out speed your own guns.

and even if you could shoot my guns off i dont have 2 spare sets i can just throw on without docking do i?

ecm and damps effects everything not just drone boats.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#385 - 2014-07-29 22:40:56 UTC
Chjna wrote:
The Ishtar needs a nerf and down to 5% tracking / level looks appropriate.

About the 8/4/7 Tempest?
No - keep some of the minmatar ships flexible. We have two and a half armor race as it is.



You mean flexible as useles and never seen? LAst Time U saw a tempest in combat was what? As a throwover to suiicide upon a mothership because everyoen on that coalition had trained for fleet tempests in the doctrine (a completely different beast).

Besides that.. the last usage of the temepst DIED on the tracking enhancers nerf.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#386 - 2014-07-29 22:42:02 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


This is why carriers and sentries are a bad combination. Sentries have great tracking and damage, and with a carrier, the downsides are completely irrelevant. Who cares if a flight of drones dies or gets left behind when you have a hundred more flights sitting in your drone hangar?


Exactly. There are supposed to be drawbacks and benefits to using a particular ship, tactic, or weapon system, though in the current state of affairs either the drawbacks can be completely mitigated, or the benefits to using that system are completely outweigh any of the drawbacks.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#387 - 2014-07-29 22:42:37 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Deeone wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?

Eagle
- i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...

Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???



Speed is the min resilience.......Seriously its made out of rust and tape you really think it can tank?


just compare the vaga to the stabber and cynabal and even orthrus now..
............speed /mass
vaga - 295 / 11.59
stabber - 290 / 11.4
cynabal - 263 / 9.0
orthrus - 245 / 9.3

yet the other 3 don't get the same kind of resilience , cap, sensor strength or tank = shield booster and T2 bonuses



You just proved you have no CLUE. That HUGE mass advantage of the pirate battleships means a LOT.

And the Vagabons ID the SPEED havc, it shoudl be the FASTEST cruisers ANYwhere. YEt.. you missed the true offender. Navy Omen.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
captain foivos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#388 - 2014-07-29 22:44:00 UTC
I mean, clearly, Fozzie and friends have missed the memo: it ain't just the Ishtar. It's sentry drones.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#389 - 2014-07-29 22:51:19 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
mynnna wrote:

As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.

>Comparing single damage mod to 3 damage mods
>Comparing damage as if tracking plays no role
>Comparing inability to change location 3 times and still having dps to not having that
>Comparing 55k ehp with 150k +ehp

Baltec is completely different to ishtars and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that.

Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most.

You guessed right.

Your coalition.


Did you just say the CFC is not unhappy about the state of slowcat?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#390 - 2014-07-29 22:52:40 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
Who cares if a flight of drones dies or gets left behind when you have a hundred more flights sitting in your drone hangar?

Sentries aren't free. There's always a collective groan in cap fleets whenever we lose a flight of them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#391 - 2014-07-29 22:55:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Keep the optimal range bonus on the ishtar as-is. Drop the tracking bonus entirely.

The tracking on the ishtar is the main problem and the drop to 5% is not nearly enough to address this (see the graphs posted elsewhere in this thread).


Ok ok.. I am agreeing with a goon. So this must be seriously right.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#392 - 2014-07-29 22:57:17 UTC
For the Ishtar, have you considered increasing it's mass a little in addition to lowering its speed?

While the sentries themselves are an issue much of the Ishtars issues are caused by the fact it burns around on the grid with impudence after deploying it's stationary weapons. If it had more trouble turning/accelerating and decelerating it might solve much of the problem. And it would create a bit of diversity with the relatively fast and nimble Vexor Navy.
100mn fits that are now super popular for Ishtar PvE in 0.0 would also be come a little less amazing at what they do.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#393 - 2014-07-29 22:58:39 UTC
5yndr0m3 wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26


Where is the Recon/T3 balance?

Also dont touch the Tempest, its in a good place. making it strictly an armor tank ship would be bad.

The Ishtar nerf dosent go far enough. Seriously, when you have them listed for more points in the AT than any other hac, you really need to pound it with a hammer.



A good place is to never ever be used? How many you saw lately? The tempest is a failure because it wastes 2 damage bonus to have less damage than its peers.

It need changes. Rise proposed change is among the least efficient and most uninterestign ways to try it, but at least he wants to try.

What tempest really needs is 75/7 and/OR 5%rof And 7.5% damage to projectiles

that or make it even smaller and faster than the typhoon

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#394 - 2014-07-29 22:58:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.


An end to sledge-hammer rebalancing?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
GROUND XERO
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#395 - 2014-07-29 22:59:33 UTC
how te hell is someone comming up with such ****** nerfs and buffs???

You are out of the game for too long or ?

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#396 - 2014-07-29 22:59:51 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Goochan derp wrote:
using the argument that sentries can be killed as a downside is kind of lame when your talking about a ship that can hold 3 sets of them. if your going to put forth the effort to kill that many drones you have probably already lost the fight. each garde2 has over 6000 raw hp with max skills so that's 30,000 hp per set. assuming an ehp value of 45,000 for the ishtar that adds up to 135,000 hp you have to kill, assuming you kill every drone and the ship... all while doing a meager 1800 m/s. sure your drones die eventually but they are essentially tripling your ehp to do so.

the fact that sentries cant move can also be seen as an advantage, if your kiting away from your enemy your essentially laying a big fat land mine in your wake whenever you deploy them. what downside is there to this? should my fleet stop and kill the drones before continuing?

the problem with the ishtar is that its simply the total package. it has everything you can possibly want in a ship.

the way to bring it in line with other ships is to start taking away its features one at a time, the problem is, where to start?

i think even if the optimal+tracking bonus was removed completely it would still be op, sentries have great range even before that bonus, and not every ship that uses large weapon systems needs a tracking bonus to be effective either.

ive spent way too much time writing this post and i don't know what else to do about this ship. ccp dosen't have it easy when it comes to ship balance, that's for sure.


It's a downside.

You cannot remain 100% effective while your drones are being killed. We can talk when everyone has guns that can be shot off one by one. While 6000 EHP is 6000EHP, there is no way to change their resist profile, and being stationary damage applies to them really well, so if you are bringing something to kill them, it's pretty easy to know exactly what to use.

The ship carries multiple waves, but ECM or Damps on the drone ship can curb much of the effectiveness of that.

There is no 100% counter, but there are valid tactics that will make killing them much easier than just charging up and attempting to blasterize them.


Every single time you send 6k+ EHP worth of damage on a sentry, the enemy send their counter volley on your ship and deploy an new sentry. That's where killing the drones fail.

ECM and damp have worse effect on non drone ship so that's not a drawback at all, it's an advantage because at least part of your DPS is still applied even if in a non optimized way while missile/turret ships have to wait until their targeting system recover.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#397 - 2014-07-29 23:03:27 UTC
How about we just add some sort of visual overlay or addition to the overview that signifies which ship has the drones assigned to it? That way FCs can disrupt the command and control better.

Just white boarding here.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Lin Fatale
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2014-07-29 23:12:48 UTC
so we can delete one of the last usefull ships from the list for small gangs

your plan to streamline evrything into harpy, crow, logi only blob fleets
without any counters especialy for smaller gangs gets to the next level

which is great because you know we all hate the small gangs which try to fight with few ppl vs larger gangs
and you are right this should be impossible, numbers is the game evryone has to play
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#399 - 2014-07-29 23:14:19 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Sister Bliss wrote:
The only BS fleets you tend to see now...

What you see now may have very little to do with bombers. For example, it's really annoying to make 10 to 20 jumps to get a fight while in a battleship. Why, if you can use Ishtar instead?
My point stands - bombers and battleships have a very long mutual history. And now we have MJD.

Shorten MJD spoolup if there is a bomb on grid.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#400 - 2014-07-29 23:22:21 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
mynnna wrote:

As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.

>Comparing single damage mod to 3 damage mods
>Comparing damage as if tracking plays no role
>Comparing inability to change location 3 times and still having dps to not having that
>Comparing 55k ehp with 150k +ehp

Baltec is completely different to ishtars and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that.

Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most.

You guessed right.

Your coalition.

holy lawl did this guy just say goons don't complain about slowcats