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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2014-07-29 23:22:40 UTC
These changes seem absolutely reasonable and sufficient. Nice to see small tweaks instead of just crushing a ship into oblivion. Any more nerfing on the Ishtar will kill it. Perfect, now how about putting that power grid back into the Vigilant?!Lol
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#402 - 2014-07-29 23:27:01 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....wait...wait... doesn't scale well...PFFFFHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Quote:
Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most.

You guessed right.

Your coalition.

Sentry carriers are stupid, sentry carriers supported by EWAR immune supercaps is even more stupid. We're not the ones abusing that particular mechanic presently, but by God WE ARE GOING TO DO IT BECAUSE CCP NEEDS TO BE REPEATEDLY HIT OVER THE HEAD WITH THEIR OWN STUPID MECHANICS TILL THEY NERF THAT SHITE INTO THE GROUND.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#403 - 2014-07-29 23:30:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest.


I prefer the current slot layout. If you want to do something for the pest why not reduce the mass a bit so that with a propmod it flies like a heavy battlecruiser.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#404 - 2014-07-29 23:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Karash Amerius wrote:
How about we just add some sort of visual overlay or addition to the overview that signifies which ship has the drones assigned to it? That way FCs can disrupt the command and control better.

Just white boarding here.


Why does it have to be so complex?

EWAR should affect the ship which should affect it's drones. It so damn simple. ECM a ship, it loses connection with its drones. Tracking Disrupt a ship, the tracking of its dromes are affected. Sensor Damp a ship, its drones sensors should be damped.

EWAR onto an enemy ship needs to affect it's drones. Basic and simple concept.

Whats the counter that the drone ships can use?? ECCM. Takes up midslots. Its effective. Even skills to increase racialnsensor strength.

The game already has the answer built right into the game. Counter Measures. CCP just needs to get with it and make the ewar carry from the ship to its drones.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#405 - 2014-07-29 23:32:05 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Deeone wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?

Eagle
- i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...

Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???



Speed is the min resilience.......Seriously its made out of rust and tape you really think it can tank?


just compare the vaga to the stabber and cynabal and even orthrus now..
............speed /mass
vaga - 295 / 11.59
stabber - 290 / 11.4
cynabal - 263 / 9.0
orthrus - 245 / 9.3

yet the other 3 don't get the same kind of resilience , cap, sensor strength or tank = shield booster and T2 bonuses



You just proved you have no CLUE. That HUGE mass advantage of the pirate battleships means a LOT.

And the Vagabons ID the SPEED havc, it shoudl be the FASTEST cruisers ANYwhere. YEt.. you missed the true offender. Navy Omen.


you would think the mass difference would be a big advantage .. but inevitably its counterbalanced too the point where it isn't .. there speed still ends up in the same area.... and what did the navy omen do? its hardly a beacon of super speed..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2014-07-29 23:37:04 UTC
Sentries aren't drones. They are deployable battleship turrets. That's why they are imbalanced.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

GreenSeed
#407 - 2014-07-29 23:42:26 UTC
the buff to the Eagle is fine and all, but the caldari HAC lineup is still confusing as hell. both the eagle and the Cerb overlap with one another... they do the same thing! i can see one is a missile boat and the other a rail platform... but that cant be all. i know that the Zealot/Sacrilege thing was lighting in a bottle and repeating the same thing without copying it 1:1 is probably impossible, but could we at least define one hull as a HAM brawler and the other one as a rail/HML sniper... as it is the eagle is still a line hull that wont see play on small gangs unless you keep buffing it, until you cave in and give it a drone bay or an extra ewar slot... and then the thing with get OP.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#408 - 2014-07-29 23:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Crazy thought for sentry drones:

Sentry drones are battleship sized weapons, in a very small hull. So they're taking liberties with shielding and the like, and are unstable.

When destroyed, they explode, damaging anything in a 6km radius, doing at least enough damage to kill any sentry drone (max boosted sentry drone, at that matter)

Oh, and push sentry drone deployment out to a 3km radius of the ship deploying them.




And just to take care of a potential issue, no sentry drone deployment within, say, 20km of a station or star gate.



If you were doing this, one would need to make sure sentries spread and could be recalled so you do not get them pop corning each other where one popping pops the whole group.

But it would not really change anything, just an interesting mechanic.

The question is, is there a counter to the ship and weapon system? If there is not then a resolution would be wise, or is it that a counter via player behaviour has not been found yet, or those who have found it are keeping it (naturally) to themselves?
If ishtars are so wildly overpowered, then why are we seeing them in killmails? As losses?
CCP can see the true balance here, it is worth it for us to find the tactics, and the fights where we can either use them or exploit their weaknesses.

Either may be possible, I make no statement either way, but both sides of the argument need to be fully considered.
But minor changes as suggested, can be monitored through the stats and revisited as needed.

If however, the cerberus had the ability to actually kill sentries with heavy missiles at similar range profiles, rather than just giving them a gentle massage, then you would have a counter, and a good one.

So your answer really is to either increase the signature of sentries, on cruiser launch platforms, or make another HAC a capable sentry drone assassin.

A good way of providing a counter rather than nerfing a ship?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#409 - 2014-07-29 23:54:58 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Deeone wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?

Eagle
- i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...

Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???



Speed is the min resilience.......Seriously its made out of rust and tape you really think it can tank?


just compare the vaga to the stabber and cynabal and even orthrus now..
............speed /mass
vaga - 295 / 11.59
stabber - 290 / 11.4
cynabal - 263 / 9.0
orthrus - 245 / 9.3

yet the other 3 don't get the same kind of resilience , cap, sensor strength or tank = shield booster and T2 bonuses



You just proved you have no CLUE. That HUGE mass advantage of the pirate battleships means a LOT.

And the Vagabons ID the SPEED havc, it shoudl be the FASTEST cruisers ANYwhere. YEt.. you missed the true offender. Navy Omen.


you would think the mass difference would be a big advantage .. but inevitably its counterbalanced too the point where it isn't .. there speed still ends up in the same area.... and what did the navy omen do? its hardly a beacon of super speed..


The idea is exaclty the speed to be on same area. The navy omen? Not a speed beacon? Omg have you ever fit one?

Let me explain like this.. we are famous for flyign basically only nano fleets.. and no one of us uses vagabonds. Navy omens on other hand.. even we consider them overpowered.


With my sameimplants.. My navy omen does 2.8 km/s without links. My vaga that has worse damage projection and tracking (altough better tank) goes 50ms more. The supposedly fastest cruiser ever is barely faster than a cruiser of the suposedly slower race. mmm while the laser boat fields better damage application. The extra tank is not relevant. If you ware relayign on speed you are doing it wrong if you take too much damage.


If somethign should be done is INCREASE vagabond speed. I barely do nto see them anymore. PEopel tried them for a hwile after the shiedl boost chagnes but soon epopel noticed that for brawling other ships outshine him by far. And for nano work the cynabal and orthos are superior.

And do not forget the kingof the kitign ships... no I will ot tell wich one, would spoil it. Hint it is not minmatar... and we use a LOT.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Pj Harvey
Red DUST Industries.
#410 - 2014-07-29 23:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pj Harvey
The Muninn needs more. Haven't seen one in combat in about 5 years. What would really bring more life to it is a double tracking bonus, let it excel as a mid-range arty sniper with outstanding tracking.

edit: as for 8/4/7 tempest, I say leave it as is, it's got flexibility right now. With that layout it'll be pigeonholed into armour. Also, please revert the phoon back to 4/4 split with 125 dronebay thx.
Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#411 - 2014-07-29 23:56:19 UTC
I think to be able to understand how to balance the ishtar you need to look up what is it upgrading from, from its basic T1:

Sacrilege: An odd one evolved from the Maller but with missiles. A range bonus, two damage bonuses and a tanking one, very attractive.

Muninn: Straight upgrade from the Rupture with two new bonuses to projection, would have preferred if it had falloff but the Vaga also having it would appear very conflicting, understandable.

Eagle: Again, straight upgrade to the moa, perfect! two bonusbonuses to optimal. Attractive, efficient tho? don't know. Rails are very popular but can't compete well, like the muninn.

Ishtar :...Okay, the way you balanced this ship is, weird? An intact drone damage bonus, dropped its hybrid turret bonus during an update, AND added THREE exotic bonuses to it, Two very specific for different types of drones, drone control? On synergy with the heavy drones, good! Now I've read this thread very thoroughly, players find the sentries very out of place here, very effective vs Battleships you can't deny they aren't for them (400 turret resolution), it is questionable why you guys pushed this role to the ship, a sentry ship, What I'd do I would change its heavy drone speed and tracking bonus to be wide across light,mediums and heavys to 10% per skill level, drop its sentry bonus and add in an attractive armor repair bonus, so you guys can put those medium AARs finally to use, which you pvp hardcores probably won't.

I only focused on rating the Heavy and Slower HACs on my article.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#412 - 2014-07-29 23:59:07 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


You cannot remain 100% effective while your drones are being killed. We can talk when everyone has guns that can be shot off one by one.


If you really want to go there, we can.

We can talk when cruiser sized ships aren't allowed to use battleship sized weapons. Because that's what the Ishtar is right now, a cruiser that can use a battleship weapon system with absolutely zero tradeoffs.

Yeah, they can be shot at. That's balances regular drones, not sentries, which you can park ridiculously far away from the enemy. Regular drones have to come to you,so you can feasibly clean them off. Sentry drones do not.

You've actually suggested that the enemy be FORCED to dedicate dps ships to shoot sentry drones until the Ishtar runs out, and then runs away because it outranges any point in the game anyway.

That is beyond asinine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#413 - 2014-07-30 00:01:34 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

If ishtars are so wildly overpowered, then why are we seeing them in killmails? As losses?


You've said a lot of stupid things, but this is one of your dumbest.

You see them as killmails because sometimes people bring more Ishtars than the first group. Because sometimes people screw up and make mistakes.

But it does not preclude them from being wildly overpowered just because they sometimes die. Those two things are completely unrelated.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#414 - 2014-07-30 00:06:14 UTC
I suggest this partially in jest, but what the ishtar fleet lacks is the rock - paper - scissors that nearly every other concept has to deal with. So, simply give them the "caldari" experience by applying the hull bonus only to thermal damage.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#415 - 2014-07-30 00:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

If ishtars are so wildly overpowered, then why are we seeing them in killmails? As losses?


You've said a lot of stupid things, but this is one of your dumbest.

You see them as killmails because sometimes people bring more Ishtars than the first group. Because sometimes people screw up and make mistakes.

But it does not preclude them from being wildly overpowered just because they sometimes die. Those two things are completely unrelated.

Thank you for yet another of your invaluable ad hominem posts.

Please read the whole post, and try to pay attention.

But taking one line completely out of context is obviously such funShockedWhat?

There are two totally separate issues here, most of the focus is on the ishtar, the actual issue here, is not that the ship is OP or not, it is whether there is an effective counter, either with another ship or other tactics?
CCP can see the figures, and I suggest that rather than follow the usual tactic that ends up nerfing whole classes of ship or weapons, IF there is no counter to provide a counter and let players discover how to use it? i suggest another HAC such as the cerberus, there may be far better platforms, but similar class and cost, would be logical.
You do not need a weaker Ishtar, what you need is a better sentry and ishtar killer.
Or possibly we already have one and we do not know it yet?
Is that clear?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#416 - 2014-07-30 00:09:03 UTC
Can't tell if already posted.

With the ishtars, I'd do what is proposed already and then push a medium into a low to force an armor tank to slow it further.
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#417 - 2014-07-30 00:13:46 UTC
Ishtar is so simple to fix... bring its DPS down to 500-600 with heavies and 400 with sentries
Budan Kado
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#418 - 2014-07-30 00:20:24 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
Budan Kado wrote:
CFC if you cant beat them, nerf them.

Devs I hope you skip over the CFC posting brigade of nerfing. Its sorta personal for them. They cant figure out how to beat them, so they will try to get them nerfed. This isnt a new case, it has happened before with ships.

Its a shame really, they have the biggest collection of players in Nullsec and when they cant out blob something, they run and cry about it to get it nerfed.


Do you mean the same fleet doctrines most of the alliances in the CFC currently use? Just because it is not a CFC doctrine does not mean it is not being used by the CFC. Or is the the standard Grr Goons reply when you cant defend something that is clearly broken and most sides agree on this statement.

why are you replying to an npc alt



because, unlike you, he understands that i pay for my accts, there for i can post on what ever character on that acct. how about you get everyone in CFC to post with their mains, then i will do the same. but we know that will never happen in a million years.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#419 - 2014-07-30 00:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
if u make it 8/4/7 will it mean remaking it a combat ship rather than attack ship?

an 8/4/7 tempest still doesnt tank as much as a mega, still doesnt do as much dps as a mega and doesnt even have the grid to fit 800's, meta neuts, cap booster, prop mod and 2x1600's.

even a tempest with a 7th gun and 8/4/7 layout it doesnt match up to a mega, but with a little grid love and combat role it may make a hefty artie platform. take away some drone bay and make it very gun boat like.

just a thought

edit- and i should probably add that an 8/4/7 tempest with no other changes takes away more reasons to fly the pest than adds. for me anyways.

a light armour BS with webs and neuts for hunting smaller ships
or a quick shield BS with good application and dps

vs what can only be an armour pest with mediocre dps, mediocre tank and that still suffers from the 'every other ship does my jobs better than me' issue.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#420 - 2014-07-30 00:23:42 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
if u make it 8/4/7 will it mean remaking it a combat ship rather than attack ship?

an 8/4/7 tempest still doesnt tank as much as a mega, still doesnt do as much dps as a mega and doesnt even have the grid to fit 800's, meta neuts, cap booster, prop mod and 2x1600's.

even a tempest with a 7th gun and 8/4/7 layout it doesnt match up to a mega, but with a little grid love and combat role it may make a hefty artie platform. take away some drone bay and make it very gun boat like.

just a thought


100% agree, the problem with the tempest isn't really it's slot loadout, it's fitting woes far outweigh that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.