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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Author
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#421 - 2014-07-30 00:28:28 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Every single time you send 6k+ EHP worth of damage on a sentry, the enemy send their counter volley on your ship and deploy an new sentry. That's where killing the drones fail.

ECM and damp have worse effect on non drone ship so that's not a drawback at all, it's an advantage because at least part of your DPS is still applied even if in a non optimized way while missile/turret ships have to wait until their targeting system recover.



Not if you do it outside of drone control range. The Ishtar is fast, the sentries it's using are not. simply do not engage them inside their control range and they are forced to abandon or go back and recall their drones.

I am not saying that there is no advantage in the way drones work. Obviously there is or they would not be used. However, so long as people insist on running face first into a meat grinder instead of exploiting the obvious weakness because it does not agree with the ever popular short-range highest damage combat doctrine the only change that needs to be made is to turn up the gain on the tear collectors. PvP tears are best tears, or so I have heard.

And yes, I have suggested using DPS ships to kill the sentries, and when there are no sentries around to remove, feel free to clear off other supports from range too.

What is needed is a change in tactics, not a change in game rules.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#422 - 2014-07-30 00:34:21 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Not if you do it outside of drone control range.


You have got to be kidding me.


Quote:

What is needed is a change in tactics, not a change in game rules.


Yeah, like not being able to fly any ship that doesn't outrange an Ishtar with two DCMs. Yeah, it's totally fine if one single ship invalidates dozens of others from even being remotely viable. The rest of those ships are just fine being fodder.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

GordonO
BURN EDEN
#423 - 2014-07-30 00:35:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this).


Disagree with this. Abaddon isn't used because its very difficult to fit properly to be effective in both PVE or PVP. There is no niche for it, besides looking cool...

... What next ??

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#424 - 2014-07-30 00:52:17 UTC
I think the Eagle could use a bigger damage bonus and perhaps a 15m3 drone bay to help deal with smaller prey. There have already been threads about just the Eagle, but it boils down to the fact that it doesn't do anything that isn't already done (and done better) by cheaper ships in the Caldari line, and forget on the HAC level. The speed change that is proposed does nothing for it.

I think the oft-proposed idea of removing the sentry bonuses from the Isthar, and simply applying drone bonuses to heavy and below, is a good start, but there is an excellent point made (many times over now) that sentry drones are broken in their current state, and a HAC that uses and bonuses such a weapon simply amplifies a pre-existing problem.

But the reason sentries are broken is complex and fixing them might, might mean breaking the current ship balance or other fundamental parts of the game. What other weapon system do you know of, uses precisely zero powergrid and cpu? How do you balance a weapon system that allows the ship to use all of it resources towards tank? How do you balance a weapon system that operates regardless of ECM status effects on the ship? How do you balance a weapon system that can be spread out to form it's own blob which makes speed tanking the tracking nearly impossible (remember this problem from the tracking titans and caps super threadnaughts)?

The answer is simple. Drones essentially exist outside most game mechanics. They are so broken that it could be argued that CCP needs to have an intervention staged in their honor. The balances that keep other systems in-line, even if not equal, do not really involve drones. You want to balance the Ishtar, then you need to bring drones into the fold that keeps everything else in line. Keeping a special set of circumstances that only effect drones hasn't worked, and will continue to not work long after the HAC pass (cue the end speech from "Crimson Tide" here).

The Ishtar might not even need a nerf unto itself. But until drones are fixed as a system, these problems will continue to exist. The Ishtar isn't a problem, it's a symptom. People here are referencing slowcats and old domi doctrines that existed and will continue to exist in a broken state even after the Ishtar nerf. So why treat a symptom instead of the problem?

I'm not going to claim to have the definitive answer here, but I'll repeat some ideas I liked that I've heard in the past (and some in this thread).
1: All ECM's need to start functioning against drone carriers. A jammed ship loses it's signal to the drones makes sense. Let's implement it. Tracking disrupters should also translate over to drones. If people could use a tracking disrupter to cut the range of Ishtar sentries we would not even be having a discussion on Ishtar nerfing. This topic also carries over to the next one because....
2: Drones currently don't use ammo. That's fine. They need that to function in the game. But you know what else doesn't use ammo? Lasers. You know what they use as ammo? Cap! Drones should use the host ship's cap. That would mean using energy drain would be a good tactic to use against drone ships. This just happens to translate well over to the next point...
3: Drone assign. I've never used it myself, but it seems like a terrible idea in the first place. But hey, CCP hasn't gotten rid of it yet, but if the hosting ship had to provide the cap for these drones to fire, suddenly being the trigger ship is a bit more nuanced.
4: someone once suggested re-working the entirety of how drone bays work. With hull bonuses for increased capacity or reduced fitting use, drone bays could be high slots. And as we have small, medium, and large weapons that take up more fittings, so could the hanger bays. Of course this would mean every ship would need at least one utility high to bring that option back...but hey, more fitting options and choices and balances in EVE sounds like a good thing to me. Like I said before, with drones taking up no fitting at all, that leaves everything for propulsion and other forms of tank. That's why most drone ships are broken in the first place.

There's a lot you can do to balance drones, but so long as they exist outside of the current weapon norms, any measure is half-butted at best and won't work. And I'm not saying any of the above ideas are perfect in their current iteration, or that we necessarily need to implement everyone of them. But I think this is a good starting platform. We start here, tweak as necessary (especially with shorter release schedules), and it can work to make EvE a lot better.
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#425 - 2014-07-30 00:57:03 UTC
Kynric wrote:
I suggest this partially in jest, but what the ishtar fleet lacks is the rock - paper - scissors that nearly every other concept has to deal with. So, simply give them the "caldari" experience by applying the hull bonus only to thermal damage.

Won't work. Sentries, still deal BS damage, at BS ranges, with MEDIUM GUN TRACKING. Doesn't matter what you do you are not getting close to an Ishtar Sentry blob.

The other stupid idea some people have is to just shoot the Sentries. Yes lets just shoot a sentry drone, while they murder one of our ships. See, were murdering their DPS guys...guys?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#426 - 2014-07-30 01:20:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place.

And by "solid" you mean essentially relegated to missions, incursions and null-sec fleets...? Battleships need a serious buff to overall hitpoints to even begin to offset the various nerfs - in particular, the huge hit to warp speed. You can solo in a strategic cruiser or command ship - but it's basically suicide to venture outside of high-sec in a battleship.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#427 - 2014-07-30 01:29:28 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place.

And by "solid" you mean essentially relegated to missions, incursions and null-sec fleets...? Battleships need a serious buff to overall hitpoints to even begin to offset the various nerfs - in particular, the huge hit to warp speed. You can solo in a strategic cruiser or command ship - but it's basically suicide to venture outside of high-sec in a battleship.



no no .. solid as in a rock at the bottom of a lake. No one sees them .. unless you happen to trip on one.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Corey Lean
No Vacancies
Wardec Mechanics
#428 - 2014-07-30 01:29:37 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
I mean, clearly, Fozzie and friends have missed the memo: it ain't just the Ishtar. It's sentry drones.

Somebody over there coined the phrase: drones as a primary weapon system and they keep doubling down on it
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#429 - 2014-07-30 01:32:32 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
no no .. solid as in a rock at the bottom of a lake. No one sees them .. unless you happen to trip on one.

Pretty much. At a bare minimum battleships need to see a 1.5-2x increase in hit points and scanning resolution so that they're not completely useless without an accompanying fleet.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#430 - 2014-07-30 01:36:08 UTC
The suggested setup for the future tempest suggests it will have more viability for hellcat fleets, and will no longer be laughing stock when a pilot attempts to bring one to a fleet because lower HP, damage; Tracking is the only advantage it has over other BSs.

Blueclaws
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#431 - 2014-07-30 01:39:55 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
if u make it 8/4/7 will it mean remaking it a combat ship rather than attack ship?

an 8/4/7 tempest still doesnt tank as much as a mega, still doesnt do as much dps as a mega and doesnt even have the grid to fit 800's, meta neuts, cap booster, prop mod and 2x1600's.

even a tempest with a 7th gun and 8/4/7 layout it doesnt match up to a mega, but with a little grid love and combat role it may make a hefty artie platform. take away some drone bay and make it very gun boat like.



I think one of the things people seem to be forgetting is that Minmatar are not Gallente. You are right it will never do as much damage as a mega, nor should it. Minmatar has never necessarily been about doing the most DPS. If you want the most raw DPS go Gallente, if you want good range control and speed go Minmatar.

Granted these are all kind of moot points at the battleship level. Even at the lower ships sizes though Minmatar hulls didn't really out DPS close range blaster boats. Its all about range control or at least it should be in my opinion.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#432 - 2014-07-30 01:53:19 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
no no .. solid as in a rock at the bottom of a lake. No one sees them .. unless you happen to trip on one.

Pretty much. At a bare minimum battleships need to see a 1.5-2x increase in hit points and scanning resolution so that they're not completely useless without an accompanying fleet.


And be able to vaporize smaller ships, yes interceptors and escape capsules and small drones orbitting you at 0m with 10 billion m/s.

They are battleships, make them behave like them.

If someone from the US-Navy would read this and imagines a small jetski attacking a battleship, he would just order someone with a minigun to sink him - ZEE END.

In EVE one Crow ganks an Apoc and makes fun of him in local..

Ditch sentries from the Ishtar, HACs balanced.


An open letter to the sov folks,

the baseprise of a HAC is 42m isk, not 400 million. /Letter

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Calico Jack Rose
Original Sinners
Northern Coalition.
#433 - 2014-07-30 02:09:12 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

These changes do nothing to affect the issue with the Ishtar (it has battleship-level DPS weapons that can hit nearly anything with virtually no downside). You would have been better off not doing anything to the ishtar than essentially redoing the paint because at least doing nothing wouldn't be quite as insulting.



perhaps reducing the drone damage bonus to 7.5% ??

also is the nerf too heavies aswell as sentries?


Hell why not just stamp it VNI then would that be ok with you!? Also T3's need to be Buffed not nerfed I mean you do lose skill points when they die. But hey if they cut out the skill loss for dying then by all means work on making them more even
General Nusense
Doomheim
#434 - 2014-07-30 02:22:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26


Please leave the Tempest alone. But the Mega should get a nerf to tracking. Maybe swap out the 7.5% tracking bonus per level to 5 percent damge per level or 10 % to drone damage or hp/speed.

Made a signature so I am taken seriously on the forums, since thats the only thing they are good for.

Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#435 - 2014-07-30 02:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
no no .. solid as in a rock at the bottom of a lake. No one sees them .. unless you happen to trip on one.

Pretty much. At a bare minimum battleships need to see a 1.5-2x increase in hit points and scanning resolution so that they're not completely useless without an accompanying fleet.


Lock times are a good balancing factor for battleships, they fit in with the slower, more methodical feel of a battleship. I think the increase in EHP is a good start. Personally, I think battleships should all get an across the board 25% role bonus to DPS, a 50% increase in HP, a 100% increase to capacitor, drone bay and cargo bay, along with new extra large size local reps, plates, and cap boosters. In addition, CBCs need to be buffed, along with brawling fits. The meta is too focused on kiting right now. Afterburners should have their bonus speed reduced along with a large reduction in their mass penalty, and short range weapons should all have their fitting and capacitor requirements reduced 20% across the board.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#436 - 2014-07-30 02:32:40 UTC
Can T1 BS hulls get a dps increase (even if its a minute one) across the board? It feels like a lot of cruisers and battlecruisers can get really close to comparable dps to some T1 BS, but without the drawbacks BS have such as low maneuverability, horrible tracking, long locktimes, etc. Attack Battlecruisers and HACs outclass BS in the sniper category and it just feels like all the drawbacks outweigh the advantages by far.
M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
Hostile Probes
#437 - 2014-07-30 02:35:50 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
I have hoped the Muninn would get a midslot more :(


^ What the Muninn really needs. 4 mids or go home, unfortunately. I'm flying a Gila right now for my shield kiting ship, if it weren't that it'd be a Cerb, maybe an Orthrus. Muninn is so far down the list I'd prefer flying a Crow, and I have a... lets say less that excellent track record with inties.


Making Tempest an armor boat isn't going to help it any, and it will be complete crap when compared to ships with similar roles ex. Apocs.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Trader Vinney
KoKaine Kowboys
#438 - 2014-07-30 02:37:25 UTC
The Ishtar itself is not the whole issue it is also sentries. As a BS sized weapon system and a rate of fire at 4 seconds that is part of the reason it is overpowered. Other long range BS class weapons have a rate of fire from 9.5 to 40 seconds. This is constant applied DPS between targets. You also have the lack of reload time obviously for drones. Stepping the rate or fire up to someplace between Tachs and Howitzers may be something to put on paper.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#439 - 2014-07-30 02:42:23 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
no no .. solid as in a rock at the bottom of a lake. No one sees them .. unless you happen to trip on one.

Pretty much. At a bare minimum battleships need to see a 1.5-2x increase in hit points and scanning resolution so that they're not completely useless without an accompanying fleet.


And be able to vaporize smaller ships, yes interceptors and escape capsules and small drones orbitting you at 0m with 10 billion m/s.

They are battleships, make them behave like them.

If someone from the US-Navy would read this and imagines a small jetski attacking a battleship, he would just order someone with a minigun to sink him - ZEE END.

In EVE one Crow ganks an Apoc and makes fun of him in local..

Ditch sentries from the Ishtar, HACs balanced.


An open letter to the sov folks,

the baseprise of a HAC is 42m isk, not 400 million. /Letter


You heard it here first folks, scan resolution make you blap small ship. Fit your dreads with SEBO for pure pwnage of anything on field.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#440 - 2014-07-30 02:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
Super Chair wrote:
Can T1 BS hulls get a dps increase (even if its a minute one) across the board? It feels like a lot of cruisers and battlecruisers can get really close to comparable dps to some T1 BS, but without the drawbacks BS have such as low maneuverability, horrible tracking, long locktimes, etc. Attack Battlecruisers and HACs outclass BS in the sniper category and it just feels like all the drawbacks outweigh the advantages by far.


There's been a call for this from the time that the rest of the sub-capitals got their balance pass. Battleships were left in the dust. Look at the KBs, look at low-sec, null-sec, look anywhere except PVE content and you'll find that battleships are rarely used anymore. Ships and fits that don't perform don't get used, they don't get kills, and they don't get blown up.