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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#321 - 2014-07-18 15:30:14 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


The second solution again sounds like it only benefits hardcore industrialists.?


... that's the point of specialization

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#322 - 2014-07-18 15:40:17 UTC
Maduin Shi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- A big part of the reason why we're pushing back on a reimbursement here is that it's a thing that is becoming a habit and we want to push back against it being the default option. There's a lot of things feeding into this, but a major part of it is the model of the value of skill training that considers skills as an ongoing cycle of anticipation and accomplishment, and the way that (for many people, we understand how skill plans work) future training goals more more defined as longer-term skills get close to finishing. By giving people windfalls of skillpoints, we a) suddenly cut short the anticipation, which is expected to also reduce the feeling of accomplishment, and b) break the natural cycle of goal-setting by completing goals unexpectedly early and without the lead-in time to consider and select new ones. We understand that the psychological value that this sets up is not considered relevant by some of our players, but we have to also consider the ones who do derive satisfaction from this sort of system, and skillpoint windfalls can be self-defeating for them.


OK dude, but you gotta reconcile this philosophy with paying customers who spent money for the SP that you're re-purposing into something they may not want. For example, I can't use a time efficiency bonus like what is being suggested in this thread because I don't run jobs continuously. I certainly wouldn't take such a skill to V. I skilled ME to get into booster manufacturing. The manufacturing stage already runs faster than the POS reaction upstream from it, so this time bonus idea is completely useless to me. Job install cost bonus would be better but still not something I would take to V for a Rank 3 skill.

Eve is about choice but that's also the problem: i.e. you want a new bonus for this skill that you want everyone to be happy with but everyone has made different choices in the game leading up to the decison to skill ME V and so it is Mission Impossible to please everyone with this or that "other" bonus to replace it.

If an SP refund is off the table for philosophical reasons fine. Let me suggest an alternative option. You know the Cerebral Accelerator that you have available for new pilots? You guys should design one to distribute as compensation to customers who are negatively impacted by major skill changes. Not exactly the same as the Cerebral Accelerator, but lets say this implant will allow you to train SP at the maximum rate that TQ allows currently if you were perfectly mapped for the skill in the queue and with 5% attribute implants. This would be highly valuable because everyone needs to train skills quite often that are outside their current neural map. The implant would last for a set amount of time or a set amount of SP, say the difference between your prior SP gain rate and the max rate would drain the SP value loaded on the implant. The item could also perhaps be transferred to alts on the same account, but otherwise could not be traded or sold

This form of compensation for skill changes fits better with your philosophy of not "devaluing" the satisfaction of progressing your character by a flat SP refund. It also keeps players subscribing so they can benefit from this form of compensation, which is good for your company's bottom line.


Trying to reconcile those things is exactly why we're having this conversation.

As to the idea of a time-limited booster as compensation, that is a very interesting suggestion that I will take up with people. Thanks :)
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#323 - 2014-07-18 15:48:23 UTC
Celor Ma'fer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


3-5% reduction across all Industry jobs, for now. Then a proper solution can be worked out for the next patch

I'd agree. Give a bonus across industry and science jobs for now, and then perhaps after the patch look at a more thorough overhaul of the science and manufacturing related skills.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#324 - 2014-07-18 16:27:30 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Celor Ma'fer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


3-5% reduction across all Industry jobs, for now. Then a proper solution can be worked out for the next patch

I'd agree. Give a bonus across industry and science jobs for now, and then perhaps after the patch look at a more thorough overhaul of the science and manufacturing related skills.
+1'd
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#325 - 2014-07-18 16:28:54 UTC
I really don't see how refunds is worse for the "perceived value" of skillpoints than is an arbitrary re-purposing of a skill people have already sunk their time into.

And if there are some people out there who gets satisfaction from the skill queue management experience, they can just go ahead and not spend the unallocated skillpoints.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#326 - 2014-07-18 17:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Zarrina
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Well option 1 is getting close to something useful and level 5 worthy. But I have actually not dealt with the upcoming work flows, so I sure don't feel comfortable in saying yup that's the one. But with it being across all industy jobs, something has be of benefit? And these are 3-5% per level, correct?

And option 2 is rather vague to me. So with my wild imagination, I best leave it alone.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Cyno Alt II
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#327 - 2014-07-18 17:26:48 UTC
Will the Capital Ship Construction skill still require the Advanced Industry (former Material Efficiency) skill as a prerequisite?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#328 - 2014-07-18 17:47:31 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?



I kind of like the 3-5% TE reduction for ALL jobs

If that one does go in, it probably oesn't NEED to be a pre req for Capital Construction, because then you would jack up Cap build time by 20% to make the 25% reduction the same as it is now…instead of all those changes, just eliminate it as a pre req and be done.

Personally, I haven't looked at the numbers, but 3% (15% total) seems like a nice balance for a rank 3 skill. Especially with the chance of an advanced skill giving like 2% per level in the future maybe
Obunagawe
#329 - 2014-07-18 17:48:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to the idea of a time-limited booster as compensation, that is a very interesting suggestion that I will take up with people. Thanks :)


What do people whose accounts were inactive when the changes were made get?
afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#330 - 2014-07-18 18:03:46 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Why can you not see that time reduction means nothing when most people do not build things 24/7.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#331 - 2014-07-18 18:10:49 UTC
Lady Zarrina wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Well option 1 is getting close to something useful and level 5 worthy. But I have actually not dealt with the upcoming work flows, so I sure don't feel comfortable in saying yup that's the one. But with it being across all industy jobs, something has be of benefit? And these are 3-5% per level, correct?

And option 2 is rather vague to me. So with my wild imagination, I best leave it alone.


Per level is what we're discussing, yes.

Cyno Alt II wrote:
Will the Capital Ship Construction skill still require the Advanced Industry (former Material Efficiency) skill as a prerequisite?


Up for discussion.

Obunagawe wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to the idea of a time-limited booster as compensation, that is a very interesting suggestion that I will take up with people. Thanks :)


What do people whose accounts were inactive when the changes were made get?


There are ways we could deal with that, I think, but it's just an idea at this point :)
afkboss wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Why can you not see that time reduction means nothing when most people do not build things 24/7.


People do research things 24/7, though, which this would also apply to. Again though, the discussion is still open, some people are advocating this option, I see upsides and downsides, I'm happy to discuss further :)

Do I take it from your comment that you would prefer the second option?
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#332 - 2014-07-18 18:23:10 UTC
afkboss wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Why can you not see that time reduction means nothing when most people do not build things 24/7.


Once again don't forget that in Crius installation costs are directly linked to the time the job takes. So anyone who starts a job of any kind will benefit from it, though it may not be all that much.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#333 - 2014-07-18 18:31:55 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?

How about the lower limit, 3%, AND additional skills?

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Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2014-07-18 19:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Freeman
I vote for the time bonus.

The only people who won't benefit from it are the people who choose to run small runs of small things. Anyone manufacturing seriously will be attempting to get maximum use out of each slot, so they are probably already running n*24 + 22 hour jobs. These are also the people who would have invested the time into training the skill previously, because it was pretty much a hard rule that it was required for serious manufacturing.

This will also provide some reprieve for the newbie manufacturers who face the research mountain

EDIT: As an aside, a more equitable solution for migrating the already researched blueprints would have been to preserve the hours of research put in. If I've put in 28 days of research into my blueprint, to get it to whatever ME/PE it is, then set my blueprint at such a level that it still represents 28 days of research.

The only downside is that the blueprint that used to be perfect, isn't perfect any more, but all the blueprints that used to be perfect would suffer the same fate, so any individual manufacturer would not be negatively affected because everyone would be in the same boat.

The current solution is allowing the existing veteran manufactuers to acquire blueprints that are effectively impossible (or totally impractical) for a new manufacturer to aim at. That last 1% ME is awesome, it simply 1% extra profit forever and ever, because only the grissly veterans who got it pre crius will ever have it. anyone who starts after crius will have missed the chance because now it is totally impractical to research to that level.

Anyway, I'll just quit now, coz my foot note is longer than my post!
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#335 - 2014-07-18 19:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Summer Isle
Kale Freeman wrote:
I vote for the time bonus.

The only people who won't benefit from it are the people who choose to run small runs of small things. Anyone manufacturing seriously will be attempting to get maximum use out of each slot, so they are probably already running n*24 + 22 hour jobs. These are also the people who would have invested the time into training the skill previously, because it was pretty much a hard rule that it was required for serious manufacturing.


ME 5 was critical to anyone who manufactured, big- or small-time, as otherwise, it would make better financial sense to sell your resources and buy what you wanted from the market. Even small-time manufacturers (the ones like myself who don't have their lines going continuously) were able to see a huge benefit from having ME to 5.

Anyway, I still don't want the skill to apply to only manufacturing, if it has to remain as a time bonus. If it is staying that way, having a higher percentage would at least make the per-time cost savings more than a few ISK on shorter runs. Having the skill affect all industry and science jobs (even at a lower percentage) would be preferable, as it would actually have a solid use for people who don't keep their lines going back-to-back as it would reduce costs across the board.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
twit brent
Never Not AFK
#336 - 2014-07-18 19:46:08 UTC
I pay a monthly subscription so my indy alt can train. If you take away a skill you should refund either the skillpoints or the game time.

Please see this from your Customers point of view and understand why people are angry.
Etara Silverblade
Morex Group Inc.
Haven.
#337 - 2014-07-18 20:27:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


If the choice has to be made then the first one (3-5% all jobs time reduction) but you have to promise to fix this in the next patch and give us back a skill that is more like the original.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#338 - 2014-07-18 20:37:24 UTC
Etara Silverblade wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


If the choice has to be made then the first one (3-5% all jobs time reduction) but you have to promise to fix this in the next patch and give us back a skill that is more like the original.

The original (ME) was too strong. Having a weaker skill is fine, just so long as it's actually useful for everyone, and not just the most active manufacturers. Material Efficiency had to go, there's no two ways to look at that, and having a skill put back in that's "like the original" would make it too strong, as well.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#339 - 2014-07-18 21:08:35 UTC
I was pushing for fee reduction earlier, but I'd take a time bonus on all S&I jobs as well. It'd particularly benefit people who went full everything S&I on one character which, well, I didn't, but it would definitely be both less mandatory than the material skill (which is important) and still useful. I haven't trained Rapid Firing to V, for example, but I can see where its last 3% could be useful.

On the other hand, I'm not keen on the idea of increasing the rank but leaving the SP constant. That would bother me for reasons I'm not sure I can articulate well.
Meytal
Doomheim
#340 - 2014-07-18 21:32:38 UTC
The problem is that you want to take a skill that was mandatory and very powerful and turn it into something insignificant. It's just not going to work, and you're not going to make people happy. It's a pretty crap move on your part, really, and you know it. You also seem hell-bent on propping up nullsec industry with this skill, which is also a crap move though forgiveable if you consider the makeup of the CSM.

If you don't want to refund, for whatever reason it is -- and none of the explanations given have any chance of actually holding water -- then you need to do something you don't want to do: make this a mandatory skill but with lesser impact. Not only should it open the gateway to more skills as in your "#2 option", but it should also give the players something extra as well.

Call it Industry Specialization (3x), and let it reduce installation costs by 5% per level. It would be more useful to more customers than a time bonus would, since it helps hisec more than it helps nullsec (instead of the other way around). It can give people a little more option in deciding how far to move away from Jita vs the cost of training this skill; those who trained it early would be able to absorb the costs of being closer to Jita more than someone without it. You cold also choose to ignore this skill and relocate your industry to a quiet, backwater system.

Then add skills (8x ?) that further reduce various industry times (Copy, Invention, Reverse Engineering, Manufacturing, ME Research, TE Research), skills that increase effectiveness of teams in varying ways, skills that reduce team costs ... all reductions should be some minor-but-not-insignificant amount that require this Industry Specialization skill at level 5.

These would be specialisation skills; you want them all, but you only have reason to train for the aspects of industry that you actually use.