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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#1681 - 2014-07-10 11:08:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Aftermath
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:


Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.





An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.





If that's about right, then I don't see what all the fuss is about.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#1682 - 2014-07-10 11:18:55 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
If that's about right, then I don't see what all the fuss is about.


Exactly.


The thing to be fussing about is the fact that that number is so low.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1683 - 2014-07-10 12:42:10 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:


Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.





An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.





If that's about right, then I don't see what all the fuss is about.

All of the fuss is because there are few things more loud than a carebear who just got his stuff exploded. Then, as soon as one cranks up, these threads begin to act as an echo chamber.
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1684 - 2014-07-10 12:50:01 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Its not like Code have any significant meta effect in game. They exploit some money and cause some grief for new players and are probably a severe annoyance for the dozen or so mining corps who operate out of that handful of systems between Hek and Dodixie where Code are really active but otherwise life in EVE goes on. It's not like you are going to regularly bump into them even in Ammatar space neverlone in losec or Stain or Providence.

CODE are sorta like the infamous bandits lurking in the Khyber Pass last century, more of a tourist attraction than a danger.


Confirming new players fly freighters.

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1685 - 2014-07-10 13:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Organic Lager
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:


Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.





An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.


Is this actually out of line? Do you have proof of tens of thousands per day? How many tens?

Freighter hull 1.3b
Cargo 15b

Price per jump 500k per 1b worth of cargo, based off standard delivery from push industries.

For a fully loaded charon assuming 50000m3 = 1b then the max trip would be 15b in the hold and the pilot is looking at 7.5m per jump.

16.3b / 7.5m = 2170 successful jumps to pay off 1 gank

2170 jumps * 6 ganks = 13,000 successful jumps per day

Now add in room for profit, as any business major will tell you that should be 5x cost minimum.

13,000 x 5 = tens of thousands

This of course assumes the shipper doesn't ever have to make a jump out of his way to pick up / drop off additional cargo.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1686 - 2014-07-10 13:52:04 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:


Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.





An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.


Is this actually out of line? Do you have proof of tens of thousands per day? How many tens?

Freighter hull 1.3b
Cargo 15b

Price per jump 500m per 1b worth of cargo, based off standard delivery from push industries.

For a fully loaded charon assuming 50000m3 = 1b then the max trip would be 15b in the hold and the pilot is looking at 7.5m per jump.

16.3b / 7.5m = 2170 successful jumps to pay off 1 gank

2170 jumps * 6 ganks = 13,000 successful jumps per day

Now add in room for profit, as any business major will tell you that should be 5x cost minimum.

13,000 x 5 = tens of thousands

This of course assumes the shipper doesn't ever have to make a jump out of his way to pick up / drop off additional cargo.

Right, now you need to adjust your numbers for the fact that it's only 6 ganks out of how many active freighters? For those six pilots, it's "omg, I'm screwed". For the others who didn't get ganked, it's just another day being an oversized gopher.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1687 - 2014-07-10 13:56:46 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
16.3b / 7.5m = 2170 successful jumps to pay off 1 gank

I think the point being made is:

1. Isn't it worth taking precautions (fitting, scouting, webbing) so as to avoid losing money to a gank?

2. Why would anyone assume that a job SHOULD pay XYZ amount? There is no minimum wage or guaranteed raises in EVE. Threats could easily eat into profit that translates into razor thin margins. This in turn will force other emergent gameplay (fun-motivated, profit-motivated, or both).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1688 - 2014-07-10 14:06:39 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:


Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.





An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.


Is this actually out of line? Do you have proof of tens of thousands per day? How many tens?

Freighter hull 1.3b
Cargo 15b

Price per jump 500m per 1b worth of cargo, based off standard delivery from push industries.

For a fully loaded charon assuming 50000m3 = 1b then the max trip would be 15b in the hold and the pilot is looking at 7.5m per jump.

16.3b / 7.5m = 2170 successful jumps to pay off 1 gank

2170 jumps * 6 ganks = 13,000 successful jumps per day

Now add in room for profit, as any business major will tell you that should be 5x cost minimum.

13,000 x 5 = tens of thousands

This of course assumes the shipper doesn't ever have to make a jump out of his way to pick up / drop off additional cargo.


Lets work it from the gank side because math is fun

Gank nados required 20
Gank nado cost 90m

Cost to gank 1.8b
Loot from gank 15b/2 = 7.5b

6 ganks a day
Cost 10.8b
Loot 45b
Profit 34.2b
Split between 20 pilots 1.71b/day
Roughly 71m/hour

I know its not the same 20 pilots playing 24 hours a day getting all 6 ganks but it should divide down to 6 teams of 20 guys working 4 hours a day to the same resolve.

Yup seems in line with skills required, isk committed and actual work involved.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1689 - 2014-07-10 14:12:44 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
16.3b / 7.5m = 2170 successful jumps to pay off 1 gank

I think the point being made is:

1. Isn't it worth taking precautions (fitting, scouting, webbing) so as to avoid losing money to a gank?

2. Why would anyone assume that a job SHOULD pay XYZ amount? There is no minimum wage or guaranteed raises in EVE. Threats could easily eat into profit that translates into razor thin margins. This in turn will force other emergent gameplay (fun-motivated, profit-motivated, or both).


1. Yes, 110% yes. Players should always fit properly and play intently if you don't you get punished. That being said the balance seems right and of course those that don't play properly will pay for those that do.

2. How else would you recommend we balance activities in eve if not an hourly isk generation model?
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#1690 - 2014-07-10 14:17:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Christina Project
Grog Aftermath wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.

An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.

If that's about right, then I don't see what all the fuss is about.

The fuss is the same that hypocrits make all over the world.
There is something they don't like and everybody has to suffer for it.

It's the consequence of the empathyless, emotionless and shallow world
"modern civilization" lives in. Spoiled, decadent, feelingless egofreaks.

This world people are being confronted with,
in which new generations grow up, not only creates these monsters ...
... ever heard of the stereotype hypocrit US American *****?! It's true! ...
... but also gives them power.

And of course these people scream up, when there's something they don't like,
completely ignoring that they are gigantic assholes that should be purged.
The fact that it's their own fault if they hate something is oblivious to them.


If we could get rid of these people,
we certainly had much less of these sick freaks around.


And I just realized that a high PLEX price will certainly help
getting rid of at least a few of them.

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Lady Areola Fappington
#1691 - 2014-07-10 14:37:08 UTC
I love how people think that 10mil ISK permit fee matters nowdays.

Sure, it did in the beginning, but we've since evolved from a "goods" (collecting permits to fund ganks) to a "service" (providing amazingly funny stories, killmails, and rage tears) based economy.

Yes, people throw ISK at us for our shenanigans! People with very deep pockets. They like the content we provide, they send us (lots and lots) of ISK, we generate more content.

So yes, please organize a mass "never pay the permit fee" campaign. I hope it really takes off. Plenty more targets then, so we can generate the lols that our billions+ ISK every month backers enjoy.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1692 - 2014-07-10 14:51:48 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
2. How else would you recommend we balance activities in eve if not an hourly isk generation model?

I am guessing that CCP's balance philosophy isn't to rush to "patch" any emergent content, but to address a long term deficiency in ISK per hour of an activity. I really don't think that freighting is at risk. Honestly, freighting on its own has never been a job to write home about (freighting with trading is where it's at).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1693 - 2014-07-10 14:55:16 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I love how people think that 10mil ISK permit fee matters nowdays.

I've always thought that 10 million seems like a low number and is there for self respect/I will never pay/screw you guys tears more than anything else.

I've also wondered if you guys would ever increase it to account for inflation and what kind of headache that creates for your propaganda team who'd have to redo all the posters and comms for the general public.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1694 - 2014-07-10 15:06:27 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Yes, people throw ISK at us for our shenanigans! People with very deep pockets. They like the content we provide, they send us (lots and lots) of ISK, we generate more content.

Now that PLEX prices are where they are, I can afford to give you guys ISK to blap ze bears.
<3
The wonders of benefiting from two things that make shitheels cry, at the same time. Thanks Eve, and CODE. \o/
Lady Areola Fappington
#1695 - 2014-07-10 15:10:57 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I love how people think that 10mil ISK permit fee matters nowdays.

I've always thought that 10 million seems like a low number and is there for self respect/I will never pay/screw you guys tears more than anything else.

I've also wondered if you guys would ever increase it to account for inflation and what kind of headache that creates for your propaganda team who'd have to redo all the posters and comms for the general public.



You're basically right. 10mil is a pittance. It ultimately has more to do with the psychological effect than anything else. It's about the miner acknowledging that yes, they play in a multiplayer sandbox and yes, others can influence their play.


I mean, if it were actually about the ISK re: permits, we'd charge a lot more, for a much shorter period, and have a much more stringent vetting system for permits than "Write something in your bio."


The best ones are the miners who'll dime out their "buddy" miners and act as a warp in, in exchange for a permit. Once a gank team gets up and operating, it never fails that we get flooded by "anonymous" tips from other miners on who we should gank next.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#1696 - 2014-07-10 15:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Christina Project
Lady Areola wrote:
You're basically right. 10mil is a pittance. It ultimately has more to do with the psychological effect than anything else. It's about the miner acknowledging that yes, they play in a multiplayer sandbox and yes, others can influence their play.


I mean, if it were actually about the ISK re: permits, we'd charge a lot more, for a much shorter period, and have a much more stringent vetting system for permits than "Write something in your bio."


The best ones are the miners who'll dime out their "buddy" miners and act as a warp in, in exchange for a permit. Once a gank team gets up and operating, it never fails that we get flooded by "anonymous" tips from other miners on who we should gank next.

You do remember that the reason for the fee was that GMs said that
miners need a way out and bumpers need a monetary reason
so it's not classified as harassment?

That's why it's so low. They exist out of the need.

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1697 - 2014-07-10 15:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Sibyyl wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I love how people think that 10mil ISK permit fee matters nowdays.

I've always thought that 10 million seems like a low number and is there for self respect/I will never pay/screw you guys tears more than anything else.

I've also wondered if you guys would ever increase it to account for inflation and what kind of headache that creates for your propaganda team who'd have to redo all the posters and comms for the general public.

i think the fee's also saying 'these people could take a simple and effortless step to stop being bumped, but they refuse to do so, so why do they deserve not to be bumped?'

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
we've since evolved from a "goods" (collecting permits to fund ganks) to a "service" (providing amazingly funny stories, killmails, and rage tears) based economy.

Yes, people throw ISK at us for our shenanigans! People with very deep pockets. They like the content we provide, they send us (lots and lots) of ISK, we generate more content.

yes that's exactly why i bought shares and my alt's permit, because i like reading james' blog. a hundred mil's hardly 'lots' of isk, of course
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1698 - 2014-07-10 16:43:28 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:


Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.





An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.


Is this actually out of line? Do you have proof of tens of thousands per day? How many tens?

Freighter hull 1.3b
Cargo 15b

Price per jump 500m per 1b worth of cargo, based off standard delivery from push industries.

For a fully loaded charon assuming 50000m3 = 1b then the max trip would be 15b in the hold and the pilot is looking at 7.5m per jump.

16.3b / 7.5m = 2170 successful jumps to pay off 1 gank

2170 jumps * 6 ganks = 13,000 successful jumps per day

Now add in room for profit, as any business major will tell you that should be 5x cost minimum.

13,000 x 5 = tens of thousands

This of course assumes the shipper doesn't ever have to make a jump out of his way to pick up / drop off additional cargo.


Lets work it from the gank side because math is fun

Gank nados required 20
Gank nado cost 90m

Cost to gank 1.8b
Loot from gank 15b/2 = 7.5b

6 ganks a day
Cost 10.8b
Loot 45b
Profit 34.2b
Split between 20 pilots 1.71b/day
Roughly 71m/hour

I know its not the same 20 pilots playing 24 hours a day getting all 6 ganks but it should divide down to 6 teams of 20 guys working 4 hours a day to the same resolve.

Yup seems in line with skills required, isk committed and actual work involved.


Congratulations on emulating Gevlon & being completely wrong about everything.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1699 - 2014-07-10 17:02:05 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:


Would be interesting to see what percentage of freighters get ganked, although it's area specific no doubt.





An average of about 6 a day out of tens of thousands of trips.


Is this actually out of line? Do you have proof of tens of thousands per day? How many tens?

Freighter hull 1.3b
Cargo 15b

Price per jump 500m per 1b worth of cargo, based off standard delivery from push industries.

For a fully loaded charon assuming 50000m3 = 1b then the max trip would be 15b in the hold and the pilot is looking at 7.5m per jump.

16.3b / 7.5m = 2170 successful jumps to pay off 1 gank

2170 jumps * 6 ganks = 13,000 successful jumps per day

Now add in room for profit, as any business major will tell you that should be 5x cost minimum.

13,000 x 5 = tens of thousands

This of course assumes the shipper doesn't ever have to make a jump out of his way to pick up / drop off additional cargo.


Lets work it from the gank side because math is fun

Gank nados required 20
Gank nado cost 90m

Cost to gank 1.8b
Loot from gank 15b/2 = 7.5b

6 ganks a day
Cost 10.8b
Loot 45b
Profit 34.2b
Split between 20 pilots 1.71b/day
Roughly 71m/hour

I know its not the same 20 pilots playing 24 hours a day getting all 6 ganks but it should divide down to 6 teams of 20 guys working 4 hours a day to the same resolve.

Yup seems in line with skills required, isk committed and actual work involved.


Congratulations on emulating Gevlon & being completely wrong about everything.


Who's gevlon? And what is wrong about what i've said, aside from the generic "everything". I'm sure you could point me to holes in my math?

Also Just to clarify I'm saying ganking is in a good place and to not nerf or buff anything but just to leave things alone.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1700 - 2014-07-10 17:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Almost literally everything. The only thing you managed to get right is the average cost of a freighter.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.