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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1541 - 2014-07-08 03:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Gavin Dax wrote:
I think we just have to agree to disagree here. I don't accept that there's no way to balance the cost of ganking empty freighter hulls to be more reasonable. You're probably right there are issues with using ISK naively but I don't think it's as bad as you make it seem. I don't know the best way to do it because I don't have the data and I haven't thought about it, but that doesn't change my opinion that the current cost numbers don't seem right in the empty/bulkhead fit freighter case.

They seem especially right in that case: the fact that you can kill an expensive ship with ships that cost a tenth as much shows that the game is properly balanced. Beyond that, it's just a matter of to which level the target is willing to subsidise the gank.

Ideally, it should be able to reach a ratio of ∞:0, but the core design of highsec unfortunately puts an end to that — you can't have zero cost in an area that is defined by aggression having a cost. That's really the only reason why the insurance mechanic had to be adjusted.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#1542 - 2014-07-08 03:26:33 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
There's content & then there's us purging Tenal & renting it out.


Its about time T3s became peacetime reimbursable. Make it happen.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1543 - 2014-07-08 04:13:31 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
There's content & then there's us purging Tenal & renting it out.


Its about time T3s became peacetime reimbursable. Make it happen.


Haha, no. I don't make policy on reimbursement, but haha no.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1544 - 2014-07-08 04:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Can we reset RAZOR now? Pretty please?

I've been saying that for a while now.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Well, if it were me, I'd do so merely to make the point to RZR to police their members.

If I were your alliance executor you'd be red after five posts on this thread.

I think rich dk is permanently red.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1545 - 2014-07-08 04:22:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Can we reset RAZOR now? Pretty please?

I've been saying that for a while now.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Well, if it were me, I'd do so merely to make the point to RZR to police their members.

If I were your alliance executor you'd be red after five posts on this thread.

I think rich dk is permanently red.


Reset everyone, except Bastion & TNT because they're cool. Also the renters because money. And FCON because they're renters too.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1546 - 2014-07-08 04:23:48 UTC
Hey, I had another thought on this. If you guys reset Razor, they'd be chased out to faction warfare, where apparently they've been for a while anyway. Twisted

At least if that one loudmouth's complaints are anything to judge by.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1547 - 2014-07-08 04:25:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hey, I had another thought on this. If you guys reset Razor, they'd be chased out to faction warfare, where apparently they've been for a while anyway. Twisted

At least if that one loudmouth's complaints are anything to judge by.


But he backtracked & said Razor has no affect on them, so who knows?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1548 - 2014-07-08 04:26:51 UTC
We wouldn't reset Razor (I think), they helped us out a couple of times in the past. It's just something I fantisize over while playing with my Tenga Egg.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1549 - 2014-07-08 04:27:25 UTC
I was hoping that hirr's banishment and tgrads leaving was going to be the straw that broke the goat's back.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1550 - 2014-07-08 04:31:28 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I was hoping that hirr's banishment and tgrads leaving was going to be the straw that broke the goat's back.


tgrads departure time was amusing for me. There's a guy in that corp that owes me an amount of isk. He refused to pay it back & told me he was only in the CFC to steal assets anyway. Then trgrads left :iiam:

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1551 - 2014-07-08 10:09:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
I think we just have to agree to disagree here. I don't accept that there's no way to balance the cost of ganking empty freighter hulls to be more reasonable. You're probably right there are issues with using ISK naively but I don't think it's as bad as you make it seem. I don't know the best way to do it because I don't have the data and I haven't thought about it, but that doesn't change my opinion that the current cost numbers don't seem right in the empty/bulkhead fit freighter case.

They seem especially right in that case: the fact that you can kill an expensive ship with ships that cost a tenth as much shows that the game is properly balanced. Beyond that, it's just a matter of to which level the target is willing to subsidise the gank.

Ideally, it should be able to reach a ratio of ∞:0, but the core design of highsec unfortunately puts an end to that — you can't have zero cost in an area that is defined by aggression having a cost. That's really the only reason why the insurance mechanic had to be adjusted.



Destruction activities should never be a zero cost net result. They should always reduce the final state.. its entropy. Let it work liek entropy.

When 2 countries get in war one might get richer, but only at a larger cost to the defeated country.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1552 - 2014-07-08 10:13:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:

But why though? I never said the cost needs to be used directly in-game for any calculations. I'm not sure why it shouldn't be a balancing factor though.

EDIT: sorry, didn't see your megathron example. No one says you need to use catalysts. And there's no reason why the mechanics for gankers can't be re-balanced as well to provide a way to kill higher valued targets quickly, but at a higher cost, if that's needed to make it more balanced. It seems like a good thing if the gankers had more options to play with too to support more variable fleet sizes.


It is not a good thing to have a megathron sporting a tank greater than two fleets of titans. You are not adding options you are destroying high sec piracy and badly breaking the game.



Not so fast.. suicide gankign too easy also removes possibilities. It is far more efficient and easier to suicide gank than to use the wardec mechanics. So .. no you are wrong, leaving one option very easy does not mean a net large number of options at the game. Thigns need to be balanced so several activities are reasonable.

Suicide ganking cannot be done too easily.. .neither impossible. Needs to have a balance.... you get a huge advantage of surprise infinite selection of targets etc.. It MUST cost more than the other options to kill ships in high sec. To kill a freighter by suicide ganking it MUST cost more than to war dec the corp to get such kill .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1553 - 2014-07-08 10:15:12 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:

Whatever it is, start with this guy.


Sorry Arkady, but I don't fly in HS. The police tend to shoot me.

I happen to think HS ganking is not perfect and should be nerfed in some corner cases like the one I described. If that alone creates so much hate in you, well you should get that looked at man.


Yes, because we all know that despite ganking being nerfed continuously every year & the fact that ganking has declined in the last 2 years, more nerfs are warranted. At least according to some guy that doesn't actually go to highsec.



Is not ganking that needs or needed nerfing... for a logn time were the destroyers that are makign hard to balance properly this mechanics.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
#1554 - 2014-07-08 10:33:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Or, the kind of people who pedantically claim that ganking is an epidemic could provide an iota of proof to begin with.


Obviously the stats we keep coming out with fade into complete insignificance in comparison with the unsupported claims that you chaps keep repeating about 'CCP totally said it wasn't a problem! (In some unknown quote I'm going to completely fail to supply)'.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Ganking SHOULD be down because after ten years you would think it would be common knowledge not to park a tincan in the open without defenses. But apparently, that is "unfair" and "lame" and "wrong" to think that folk might want to actually look after their investments.


Yes, the game being around for 10 years would obviously mean that new players know everything about it before they start playing..

I know the popular bitter vet whine is that people just want High Sec to be totally safe wah wah wah. It's not true in the slightest. Some of us just want there to be a reasonable balance between carebear and ganker. When we're at a point where people are blowing up high value ships in high-sec in large numbers no matter how they're fitted, no matter how they're flown and regardless of what they're carrying, then something is still out of kilter.

All it says to industry minded high sec players is that they either become stop doing industry and change to pvp or just watch any effort they put into the game wiped out at any moment for nothing. There seems to be some fantasy land bitter-vet narrative where all carebears are sitting rolling around in beds of money. Truth is that the margins on most high sec industry stuff are not very large. When a miner gets hit for 200m or a freighter pilot suddenly loses 500m on a freighter that's a significant hurt for a lot of pilots.

But hey, they can always go back out and mine for another 100 hours to replace that Hulk and hope that another ganker doesn't just fly past and pop that one as well eh?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#1555 - 2014-07-08 10:45:54 UTC
Yup its the pirates fault because YOU cannot be bothered training a newbro

Its the fault of pirates that people "have" to mine for 100 hours because they bought a stupid ship

Its the fault of pirates that the newbro experience is designed to appeal to those of us that like to work things out rather than have it handed to us.

If the gankers are so lame and lazy, and do what one or two teach them, ask yourself why carebears are unable to do the same thing.

Facts work both ways;

You say ganking is an epidemic in your experience

I say that none of my carebear friends have lost a ship in months

Both could indeed be right, but in what I say I have proof that if its an epidemic, its the fault of lazy players and CEOs who dont give a crap about their crews and people who dont want to be bothered helping newbros.

And before you say it, no Im not saying blowing them up is their help (though it certainly DOES teach the few willing to accept the convo after when advice is offered).

So instead of sitting there complaining how people who roleplay pirates in a space dystopia roleplaying game should be shot, why dont you go out there and spread the news about tanking, watching local and being responsible for your own actions and your own safety.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
#1556 - 2014-07-08 11:31:08 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Yup its the pirates fault because YOU cannot be bothered training a newbro
Its the fault of pirates that people "have" to mine for 100 hours because they bought a stupid ship


A 'stupid ship'. Thanks, you just summed up your take on this very nicely.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
If the gankers are so lame and lazy, and do what one or two teach them, ask yourself why carebears are unable to do the same thing.
Facts work both ways;

You say ganking is an epidemic in your experience

I say that none of my carebear friends have lost a ship in months

Both could indeed be right, but in what I say I have proof that if its an epidemic, its the fault of lazy players and CEOs who dont give a crap about their crews and people who dont want to be bothered helping newbros.


Yes well done, when a group go around blowing up large numbers of other peoples stuff in high sec, that's the fault of the people getting shot. Except in the many, many instances where it demonstrably isn't.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
And before you say it, no Im not saying blowing them up is their help (though it certainly DOES teach the few willing to accept the convo after when advice is offered).
So instead of sitting there complaining how people who roleplay pirates in a space dystopia roleplaying game should be shot, why dont you go out there and spread the news about tanking, watching local and being responsible for your own actions and your own safety.


I don't need any help with my own safety thanks, I'm not the one losing ships. I'm the one doing my ganking in low sec where when you pop a retriever in a belt you can genuinely say he deserved it for choosing a course of action that he could reasonably expect to be dangerous. Unlike say undocking at Jita or Amarr on the wrong day.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1557 - 2014-07-08 11:37:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:

Whatever it is, start with this guy.


Sorry Arkady, but I don't fly in HS. The police tend to shoot me.

I happen to think HS ganking is not perfect and should be nerfed in some corner cases like the one I described. If that alone creates so much hate in you, well you should get that looked at man.


Yes, because we all know that despite ganking being nerfed continuously every year & the fact that ganking has declined in the last 2 years, more nerfs are warranted. At least according to some guy that doesn't actually go to highsec.



Is not ganking that needs or needed nerfing... for a logn time were the destroyers that are makign hard to balance properly this mechanics.


Please try again in coherent English.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1558 - 2014-07-08 11:39:51 UTC
Kal Murmur wrote:
Some of us just want there to be a reasonable balance between carebear and ganker.


Wouldn't it be awesome if CCP gave a barge the potential to field a battleship-like tank & gave it some sort of weapons bonus. I know! They could gives drones a damage bonus!

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1559 - 2014-07-08 11:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Destruction activities should never be a zero cost net result. They should always reduce the final state.. its entropy. Let it work liek entropy.
Good news: it already does.

Quote:
Suicide ganking cannot be done too easily.. .neither impossible. Needs to have a balance.... you get a huge advantage of surprise infinite selection of targets etc.
So what you're saying is that suicide ganking needs to be buffed, since not only do you have no element of surprise in the instant-intel world of EVE, but you also have a very minute selection of targets and even among that selection, the targets are largely self-selected rather than something the gankers can pick and choose from.

Quote:
It MUST cost more than the other options to kill ships in high sec.
No, the exact opposite is true: it absolutely must not cost more to kill than it costs to be killed because then you have such an immense imbalance that you might as well remove 99% of the game. You are trying to use cost as a balancing factor. The problem with this is that cost can never be a balancing factor — it can only, at best, be a product of balance. The moment you try balance according to cost you have removed all choice, all variety, and all balance because cost has never in the history of gaming stopped anyone from getting the “best” ship that is the inevitable result of this kind of non-balance.
Kal Murmur
Lazortits
#1560 - 2014-07-08 11:58:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So what you're saying is that suicide ganking needs to be buffed, since not only do you have no element of surprise in the instant-intel world of EVE, but you also have a very minute selection of targets and even among that selection, the targets are largely self-selected rather than something the gankers can pick and choose from.


Please be better at the game. Pick a moderately busy system with ice anomaly, wait for ice to respawn + 10-20 minutes for the flock of Orcas and barges to arrive, wait another 30 minutes for the miners to start nodding off from the sheer tedium of ice mining, enter sys, ship up and farm tears.

Alternatively if you want freighters, sit on any busy trade route with a side system.

If people are going to gank carebears at least have the good grace to stop pretending that it's oh so difficult.