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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

First post First post First post
Author
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1321 - 2014-07-05 16:55:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:

The issue I have is that CPP has bent over backwards to make it as risk free as it gets in their effort to promote their 'bad boy' MMO and market to the lowlife griefer that has been kicked out of every other game. Sec status loss is no consequence and neither is the loss of a cheap destroyer.


Is that why they buffed freighters, barges and T1 haulers this past few expansions?

Or why they raced to hotfix the MTU "exploit" faster than anything else they have ever done?

Or hey, why NPC corps remain functionally immune to PvP in highsec?

Or why people who flagrantly break the EULA regarding verbal abuse against gankers are pretty much never punished?

Nevermind the 6+ years of nerfs to ganking added up before the things mentioned above. Buffing destroyers and adding sec tags amounts to nothing compared to the mountain of nerfs ganking has received. Not even Caldari has been nerfed as much in the game's history as has ganking.

"bent over backwards", don't make me laugh.


You can be such a drama queen, sometimes.

Buffing gank targets just means you add one more ship to your fleet. I can't comment on the MTU thing, really, but fixing an exploit is a good thing, right? While NPC corps are immune to wardecs, they are certainly not immune to PVP. Six plus years of token nerfs is meaningless. Sec tags are a joke as there is no meaningful restriction on being -10.

So that leaves buffing destroyers.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1322 - 2014-07-05 16:59:03 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:

Buffing gank targets just means you add one more ship to your fleet.
*snip out nonsense*
So that leaves buffing destroyers.



So I guess your complaint is that we're allowed to use multiple people? They buffed the typical targets of a destroyer in pretty well equal measure to buffing destroyers anyway. Grr, having friends?

Or, going back to your earlier post, the weak and stupid should totally die, but not really because ganking is too easy, and boy oh boy nobody better enjoy it or else they're griefers.

That about right? Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1323 - 2014-07-05 17:04:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

So I guess your complaint is that we're allowed to use multiple people?


That's what you got out of what I said? LOL!

I have kids already that try that tactic. I don't bite with them and I won't bite with you.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1324 - 2014-07-05 17:08:41 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

So I guess your complaint is that we're allowed to use multiple people?


That's what you got out of what I said? LOL!

I have kids already that try that tactic. I don't bite with them and I won't bite with you.

Mr Epeen Cool


As opposed to handwaving away everything that doesn't agree with your narrative? Yep, you're just a bastion of intellectual honesty. Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1325 - 2014-07-05 17:33:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

So I guess your complaint is that we're allowed to use multiple people?


That's what you got out of what I said? LOL!

I have kids already that try that tactic. I don't bite with them and I won't bite with you.

Mr Epeen Cool


As opposed to handwaving away everything that doesn't agree with your narrative? Yep, you're just a bastion of intellectual honesty. Roll


Like sticking *snip out nonsense* in a quote? That the kind of hand waving you mean?

It's not me doing that, brother.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1326 - 2014-07-05 17:35:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:

Like sticking *snip out nonsense* in a quote? That the kind of hand waving you mean?


No, that's where I cut out your claims that being neg ten means nothing, and that the years of CONCORD buffs are "token nerfs". I cut out the parts where you were handwaving away the things that didn't support your argument, hence why I called it nonsense.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1327 - 2014-07-05 17:40:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:

Like sticking *snip out nonsense* in a quote? That the kind of hand waving you mean?


No, that's where I cut out your claims that being neg ten means nothing, and that the years of CONCORD buffs are "token nerfs". I cut out the parts where you were handwaving away the things that didn't support your argument, hence why I called it nonsense.


Because it didn't agree with your narrative?

Interesting.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1328 - 2014-07-05 17:42:13 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:

Because it didn't agree with your narrative?



No, because you were lying.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gorinia Sanford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1329 - 2014-07-05 17:51:07 UTC
Christina Project wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Sounds like somebody was in Aufray last night.. and didn't have fun party sexy time.

How would you know where it happened?

Most suicide gankers are just chestbeating carebears hiding inside the station
until they undock in a group, strike and vanish again.

Make CCP nerf the cowards and the game will change.

Until then you have to live with these cowards.


Or better yet, learn to tank your ship. Had a douche nozzle try to gank me in my Mackinaw in the Jeras system. Unfortunately for him I was A) aligned to the station and B) alert enough to activate defenses and warp out. Granted, he DID do hull damage, but I did survive long enough for Concord to take care of the problem.

After I got back to the station, I repaired, got my Noctis and got some nifty salvage that earned me a pretty penny.

The key here is making your ship unkillable in high sec before Concord can respond. I realize the big freighters are a different story, not much you can do with them as they don't have hardly anything you can fit to them, but anything else can be tanked to one degree or another, you just need the knowledge and skills to do so.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1330 - 2014-07-05 18:05:29 UTC
Gorinia Sanford wrote:
Christina Project wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Sounds like somebody was in Aufray last night.. and didn't have fun party sexy time.

How would you know where it happened?

Most suicide gankers are just chestbeating carebears hiding inside the station
until they undock in a group, strike and vanish again.

Make CCP nerf the cowards and the game will change.

Until then you have to live with these cowards.


Or better yet, learn to tank your ship. Had a douche nozzle try to gank me in my Mackinaw in the Jeras system. Unfortunately for him I was A) aligned to the station and B) alert enough to activate defenses and warp out. Granted, he DID do hull damage, but I did survive long enough for Concord to take care of the problem.

After I got back to the station, I repaired, got my Noctis and got some nifty salvage that earned me a pretty penny.

The key here is making your ship unkillable in high sec before Concord can respond. I realize the big freighters are a different story, not much you can do with them as they don't have hardly anything you can fit to them, but anything else can be tanked to one degree or another, you just need the knowledge and skills to do so.


Agreed.

It doesn't take much to get a 30k EHP buffer on a mack. And buffer is what you want in high sec.

Remember, you are tanking against an alpha strike. Not a sustained barrage. All you need do is stay alive long enough for Concord to show up.

You'll still die to a pro gank squad but 9 out of 10 times you get away because most gankers aren't pros. They are under sized and don't scan you. Bonus if you nail a pod with your drones while he's sitting there crying in local that you are using hacks because you didn't blow up.

Mr Epeen Cool
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1331 - 2014-07-05 18:06:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

Once again the effort to avoid a gank is all on the gankee, fit better tank, watch local, watch descan, avoid systems. What effort is put in by the gankers to make a more successful gank? what risks? sit on station and scan ships coming and going, freely calculate your odds of success, suicide ganking is almost as binary as the concord.


You have the wrong mindset toward this.

We pick our targets. We don't have the ability to attack freely, we have to wait for someone else to make mistakes before we gank them. The risk is 100% determined by the potential victim.

That's how it's supposed to work in EVE. Yes, the aggressor has the advantage in an individual confrontation, by the very nature of having chosen to attack in the first place. Because of the 100% effective magic space police, we have no choice but to attack when we think we are guaranteed to succeed. You can thank CCP for that.

But across the game as a whole, not just one individual gank, the advantage is overwhelmingly in the hands of the freighter pilots. This can be observed due to just how very few of them actually die. Thousands of freighter jumps per day, and a handful die. And so few of them actually die because the initiative is almost completely in their hands. Red Frog doesn't have a loss percentage in the single digits for nothing.

Ganking is very much a reactive force. I know this isn't the answer that carebears want to hear, but if they're not proactive in their own defense, that's their problem. Not a problem with the game balance, not a problem with any mechanic, their problem.

Being asked to put some effort into your own self defense is not asking too much.


I agree with you in the fact that a players defense is their own responsibility I have no issues with this.

My original post was to refute that ganking was some overly difficult task and this idea that gankers have in which somehow they earned or worked for their targets. Gankers don't earn anything, they sit around, risk free, watching netflix until something falls into their lap, then act like gods of the universe for their pvp talent and intuition. All the while pointing the finger at the guy who is already taking the risks, researching missions, actually fighting ships in space and say "well he should have done more" and "are you crazy? ganking is super duper hard and should be made easier".

How easy do you want to make ganking? how rewarding should 30 minutes of netflix, followed by 5 minutes of one sided, fail proof, risk free combat, really be?

I have no issues with the way ganking works now, it's balanced ithe pay seems in line with the risk and effort involved. I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded into a scalable profession (more risk, more reward, less binary) I have no idea how one would actually accomplish this though.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1332 - 2014-07-05 18:20:48 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:

I agree with you in the fact that a players defense is their own responsibility I have no issues with this.


You specifically might not, but plenty of others have been railing for dozens of pages about it, so that's relevant.

Quote:

Gankers don't earn anything, they sit around, risk free, watching netflix until something falls into their lap,


I'd love to hear how you feel about miners, then.

Quote:

then act like gods of the universe for their pvp talent and intuition. All the while pointing the finger at the guy who is already taking the risks, researching missions, actually fighting ships in space and say "well he should have done more" and "are you crazy? ganking is super duper hard and should be made easier".


Pretending like the game's PvE content is hard doesn't help your case any.

Quote:

How easy do you want to make ganking? how rewarding should 30 minutes of netflix, followed by 5 minutes of one sided, fail proof, risk free combat, really be?

I have no issues with the way ganking works now, it's balanced ithe pay seems in line with the risk and effort involved. I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded into a scalable profession (more risk, more reward, less binary) I have no idea how one would actually accomplish this though.


Facpo needs to be removed for everyone but people enlisted in FW. For starters. Facpo is the mechanic behind why gankers "hide in station" all the time, which apparently is something people have failed to realize yet. That makes it basically pointless to undock in anything but a disposable ship, so the whiteknights are being blueballed by their own much cried for safety mechanic. Removing facpo would go a long way to making it not truly stupid for a neg sec character to undock in something besides a Catalyst or a Tornado.

Then you make it possible to tank CONCORD, even if only temporarily as they ramp up their damage. That, combined with variable response times would actually open the door for player interaction. Player interaction does not thrive when safety mechanics like CONCORD and facpo are 100% effective, all day every day, every time.

Will more carebears die if this happens? You betcha. Their tears would throw the earth off it's orbit. Which is why CCP will never do it. They've demonstrated numerous times that they cave in to crying. That doesn't change the fact that it's the right thing to do, however.

But unless it actually happens, you get to live with the mechanics that the carebears have earned for themselves. Gankers won't undock until they can strike for a kill, and the people who cry about wanting to get back at them will be eternally buleballed by the behavior forced upon gankers by the heavy handed highsec safety mechanics.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1333 - 2014-07-05 18:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
So many future war targets in this thread it is truly a beautiful site.

All I need now is ISK to fund it all. Anybody want their isk doubled?

I would like to point out. Even though I am not a ganker (Yes I tried it, don't like it) For those that said that bears don't get punished for insults. I can as a matter of fact point to a few that has been punished after calling me a few unkind words via email or chat.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1334 - 2014-07-05 18:42:33 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
So many future war targets in this thread it is truly a beautiful site.

All I need now is ISK to fund it all. Anybody want their isk doubled?

I would like to point out. Even though I am not a ganker (Yes I tried it, don't like it) For those that said that bears don't get punished for insults. I can as a matter of fact point to a few that has been punished after calling me a few unkind words via email or chat.


Nobody that knows you doubts your vengeance.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1335 - 2014-07-05 18:43:36 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
So many future war targets in this thread it is truly a beautiful site.

All I need now is ISK to fund it all. Anybody want their isk doubled?
Token donation sent. Lol
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1336 - 2014-07-05 18:45:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
So many future war targets in this thread it is truly a beautiful site.

All I need now is ISK to fund it all. Anybody want their isk doubled?
Token donation sent. Lol


You are to kind.

Never stop correcting people on these forums.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1337 - 2014-07-05 18:54:54 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
So many future war targets in this thread it is truly a beautiful site.

All I need now is ISK to fund it all. Anybody want their isk doubled?

I would like to point out. Even though I am not a ganker (Yes I tried it, don't like it) For those that said that bears don't get punished for insults. I can as a matter of fact point to a few that has been punished after calling me a few unkind words via email or chat.


Certainly fair. I had meant punishment in any official capacity however. The de facto approval of such actions weighs heavily upon me, having been doxxed in the past.

That said, give them hell. You are a living embodiment of emergent gameplay.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1338 - 2014-07-05 18:56:44 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
So many future war targets in this thread it is truly a beautiful site.

All I need now is ISK to fund it all. Anybody want their isk doubled?

I would like to point out. Even though I am not a ganker (Yes I tried it, don't like it) For those that said that bears don't get punished for insults. I can as a matter of fact point to a few that has been punished after calling me a few unkind words via email or chat.

love it, go getem.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1339 - 2014-07-05 20:38:41 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:


Alt recycling abuse is generally done with specific ships in mind which are quick and easy to train for yet have a comparably high alpha strike (destroyers). They're pretty quick to train for and a "serious" abuser usually has multiple alt accounts cycling in such a way that a new batch of disposable characters is in training while the current batch is in use. When Batch A's sec status gets too low, Batch B will be fully trained and ready to use. Once Batch B is used up, the replacement characters for Batch A are ready for use. If all this seems like more effort than it is worth, it is because it really is more effort than it is worth, unless you like having your main accounts suspended Blink

All that being said, alt recycling really is not a common problem these days. We don't see very many tickets anymore where the reported player actually was recycling alts. It was much more common back when newly created characters started with more SP after character creation. Back then there were setups which practically had you in destroyers right after character creation.


No wonder you don't want 'alt recycling' when you allow so many other activities that would get bans in other games.

Thank you very much for the explanation. Seems like a system that would work only for particular skill sets.
It doesn't work particularly well for others (like mining or industry).

Mining only has the Venture (and now the prospect) for early use. the mining barges and exhumers are very expensive both in time and isk when compared to the 'quick-load' destroyers fitted to destroy them.

That points to a definate divide in the player types, doesn't it? well-armed predator vs unarmed prey

Casual players (like myself) don't really have a chance to excell in EvE, do we?
Some people don't have the time/money to run multiple accounts as you just described (if I understand the explanation correctly).
Guess I should be satisfied with what I've done so far. Guess solo mining (especially by new players) is a playstyle considered 'unwanted' by CCP.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1340 - 2014-07-05 20:46:40 UTC
Other MMO's do not allow you to shoot spaceships... Imagine that.

What bans are you talking about? Please tell us what gets you banned?

As far as I know suicide your ship does not get you banned.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk