These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3361 - 2014-09-02 05:07:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?


Ever been to highsec?


Whats your point? Trying to fly a freighter under a wardec is about as moronic as it gets.


I know....and yet it happens every day, multiple times a day. Welcome to highsec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3362 - 2014-09-02 05:08:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


And again - just like warp scrambling is a crime, using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.


No it shouldn't.

It is laughably easy to avoid and if you do get bumped there are several very easy ways to get out of it.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3363 - 2014-09-02 05:08:58 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?


Ever been to highsec?


Whats your point? Trying to fly a freighter under a wardec is about as moronic as it gets.


I know....and yet it happens every day, multiple times a day. Welcome to highsec.


And because of poor judgement they lose a ship. Welcome to Eve
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3364 - 2014-09-02 05:09:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not getting your scenario.
What is it you don't get about it? You get an instawarp that you can call in if you need it, which means you are in full control of the encounter. Before they can bring anything to bear on you, you have already decided the outcome. This is a bad thing. Your idea is bad. it also solves nothing.

Quote:
I would be thrilled of CONCORD would act like hall monitors, the UN, or parking attendants.
That is not their role so they never will.

Quote:
Ever been to highsec?
That doesn't answer his question: why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?

Quote:
using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.
…except that there is exactly zero functional overlap, as you know full well by now. So there is zero reason why it should be a crime. That's why it isn't on and why CONCORD (to say nothing of the GMs) doesn't and shouldn't care about it.


You could be aligned and insta warp already? How does immunity from bumping help? I'm just really not getting your scenario.....

And the fact is that when you try to press that warp button and it doesn't work, you don't care whether its from a scram or from bumping...the fact is that your mobility has been impaired. There is no reason for CONCORD to care what the cause of the impairment is.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3365 - 2014-09-02 05:09:57 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
"other" is not a required word in that sentence. In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves." The fact that he did not say that strongly suggests that CONCORD is in fact viewed as a law enforcement agency (which is exactly what they do - enforce the laws, and punish criminals).


CCP Falcon said that exact thing in the sentences immediately surrounding the one you're quoting:

CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

....

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.


Notice the use of a rhetorical question to explain that CCP (and thus the mechanics of the game) do not provide and are not meant to provide protection to you.

Also notice how he coolly dismisses your claim that HS is not a place where you need friends.


CCP Falcon was referring to people getting blown up before CONCORD arrived (when I agree they deserve no protection). My point is that CONCORD should act intelligently once it shows up, and not let a ship effectively be rendered unable to warp due to bumping, hence my 60 seconds of immunity from bumping.


At no point does he limit his statements the way you're claiming he does.

CONCORD does act intelligently to enforce the laws of New Eden. Preventing someone from warping is not against the law in New Eden, only Activating an Aggressive Module in HS is.

Since you claimed to be a lawyer, think of this as being like going to Louisiana and arguing Common Law.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3366 - 2014-09-02 05:10:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


And again - just like warp scrambling is a crime, using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.


No it shouldn't.

It is laughably easy to avoid and if you do get bumped there are several very easy ways to get out of it.


Warp scrambling is also easy to avoid. Blow up the scram...get out before they lock, move out of range, have friends bump them out of range. Do we care? Do we not have CONCORD punishing for restricting mobility because its easy to avoid?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3367 - 2014-09-02 05:10:51 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again - just like warp scrambling is a crime, using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.


It isn't a crime.
It isn't functionally equivalent.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3368 - 2014-09-02 05:11:52 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
"other" is not a required word in that sentence. In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves." The fact that he did not say that strongly suggests that CONCORD is in fact viewed as a law enforcement agency (which is exactly what they do - enforce the laws, and punish criminals).


CCP Falcon said that exact thing in the sentences immediately surrounding the one you're quoting:

CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

....

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.


Notice the use of a rhetorical question to explain that CCP (and thus the mechanics of the game) do not provide and are not meant to provide protection to you.

Also notice how he coolly dismisses your claim that HS is not a place where you need friends.


CCP Falcon was referring to people getting blown up before CONCORD arrived (when I agree they deserve no protection). My point is that CONCORD should act intelligently once it shows up, and not let a ship effectively be rendered unable to warp due to bumping, hence my 60 seconds of immunity from bumping.


At no point does he limit his statements the way you're claiming he does.

CONCORD does act intelligently to enforce the laws of New Eden. Preventing someone from warping is not against the law in New Eden, only Activating an Aggressive Module in HS is.

Since you claimed to be a lawyer, think of this as being like going to Louisiana and arguing Common Law.


You don't define crimes by hypertechnical actions like "activating" a module. You define them by effect like "impairing mobility." It would be like punishing for murder by stabbing and not murder by bludgeoning - it would literally make no sense.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3369 - 2014-09-02 05:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
You could be aligned and insta warp already?
Then you don't control the situation.

Quote:
And the fact is that when you try to press that warp button and it doesn't work, you don't care whether its from a scram or from bumping.
Yes you do, because on one case, you can't warp whereas in the other, you still can. CONCORD cares because the former requires the use of an aggressive module and the latter does not.

Quote:
You don't define crimes by hypertechnical actions like "activating" a module
Yes you do. In fact, you have to. Welcome to game design.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3370 - 2014-09-02 05:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
You don't define crimes by hypertechnical actions like "activating" a module. You define them by effect like "impairing mobility." It would be like punishing for murder by stabbing and not murder by bludgeoning - it would literally make no sense.


You might not, I might not. CONCORD does because it's a game mechanic rather than a legislative body.

You also don't get a police force that arrives nearly instantaneously and summarily executes the criminal 100% of the time. More evidence that CONCORD isn't a police force.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3371 - 2014-09-02 05:16:04 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


And again - just like warp scrambling is a crime, using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.


No it shouldn't.

It is laughably easy to avoid and if you do get bumped there are several very easy ways to get out of it.


Warp scrambling is also easy to avoid. Blow up the scram...get out before they lock, move out of range, have friends bump them out of range. Do we care? Do we not have CONCORD punishing for restricting mobility because its easy to avoid?


I don't care how you try to word this terrible idea of yours.

Protection of your ship is up to you, bumping is not an aggressive mechanic and is easily avoided. Concord will not protect you from your own incompetence.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3372 - 2014-09-02 05:16:36 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
You don't define crimes by hypertechnical actions like "activating" a module. You define them by effect like "impairing mobility." It would be like punishing for murder by stabbing and not murder by bludgeoning - it would literally make no sense.


You might not, I might not. CONCORD does.


And it shouldn't, here where that can be easily remedied by adopting my solution (and look how weak the parade of horribles in objection is...."losing control of the situation," seriously?"), it should be adopted to make CONCORD's enforcement of the law more logical, and less hypertechnical.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3373 - 2014-09-02 05:17:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


And again - just like warp scrambling is a crime, using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.


No it shouldn't.

It is laughably easy to avoid and if you do get bumped there are several very easy ways to get out of it.


Warp scrambling is also easy to avoid. Blow up the scram...get out before they lock, move out of range, have friends bump them out of range. Do we care? Do we not have CONCORD punishing for restricting mobility because its easy to avoid?


I don't care how you try to word this terrible idea of yours.

Protection of your ship is up to you, bumping is not an aggressive mechanic and is easily avoided. Concord will not protect you from your own incompetence.


Except they will protect you from your incompetence in getting scrammed, right? And why is my idea terrible? Please give me your horrible scenario.
Supremacyy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3374 - 2014-09-02 05:18:58 UTC
I've had to decommission a few freighters and mining ships. It was a very unpleasant task but had to be done.

I only wish pilots would get the proper permits and obey the laws so I didn't have to do these things. Please I beg you to do the right thing. If anyone has questions please feel free to contact me and I'll be happy to help. We're all here for each other.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3375 - 2014-09-02 05:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
And it shouldn't, here where that can be easily remedied by adopting my solution (and look how weak the parade of horribles in objection is...."losing control of the situation," seriously?"), it should be adopted to make CONCORD's enforcement of the law more logical, and less hypertechnical.


Ok, so CONCORD now punishes bumping. All bumping.

Remember, CONCORD is not a victim's services organization. They have nothing to do with protecting anyone.
There is only one punishment in EVE.

Your "solution" goes against several basic design principles of CONCORD. Namely, that they are not proactive and they are not protective. They are exclusively punitive.

In other words, if you want protection bring friends.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3376 - 2014-09-02 05:20:38 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


Except they will protect you from your incompetence in getting scrammed, right? And why is my idea terrible? Please give me your horrible scenario.


No, they wont. Concord will not stop people from pointing you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3377 - 2014-09-02 05:21:10 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Except they will protect you from your incompetence in getting scrammed, right?
No.

Quote:
And why is my idea terrible?
This has already been explained in full.
Devils Embrace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3378 - 2014-09-02 05:21:52 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Wouldn't it just be quicker to warp off if the WTs are coming?
But then you don't get to blow them up if it turns out you can take them.

Quote:
All the groups you gave serve a police-like function, they enforce laws.
No. None of them do, because none of them are law enforcement agencies or officials. And that's the whole point you're missing: just because you police something or serve a police-like function does not make you police or what you do law enforcement.


Not getting your scenario...so you spawn CONCORD and now can't be bumped...you wait for the WT's to come (presumable you align away since you may want to run). They show up....and now you can instawarp...but you could do that anyway...they will never have time to bump you....and anyway why would they bother? It's much quicker to just scram you....again your parade of horribles is breaking down.....

I would be thrilled of CONCORD would act like hall monitors, the UN, or parking attendants. These people do more than just hand out fines. They also take necessary action to enforce the laws and accomplish their duties. A hall monitor who sees Student A beating up Student B would not just give them both tickets for being out of class and go home, he would break the fight up. Ditto for the UN. And the parking attendant would also enforce other laws in his jurisdiction.


Veers, are you braindead? Concord would be the hall attendant. He shows up AFTER it starts.

It's like they usually say about fantasy MMO's and men playing female characters: "If I'm going to spend alot of time watching this character, it might as well have a good looking ass".
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3379 - 2014-09-02 05:23:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Except they will protect you from your incompetence in getting scrammed, right? And why is my idea terrible? Please give me your horrible scenario.


No, they wont. Concord will not stop people from pointing you.




They will come and blow up the pointers. My solution replicates that, in that they come and "release" the point, allowing you to warp off. Now what is the horrible downside to this?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3380 - 2014-09-02 05:24:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Except they will protect you from your incompetence in getting scrammed, right?
No.

Quote:
And why is my idea terrible?
This has already been explained in full.


You completely failed to give a scenario where this would be problematic.