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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3301 - 2014-09-02 04:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.



I gave you several a few pages back.


Must have missed it, can you clarify? This is without assistance from friends, etc....


This is an MMO, they are using a fleet, what makes you think you don't have to use at least one friend to counter the efforts of 25 people?


Why does CONCORD come and save you if you get warp scrambled? Why don't they demand that you bring friends to help you? Because when people do bad things to you in highsec, CONCORD comes and kills them, and sets you free. Why should it matter if they pressed F5 to scram you, or used 3 machs to bump you so you can't align and warp off?


Because if concord went after people bumping each other then the jita undock would be a graveyard.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#3302 - 2014-09-02 04:09:44 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
[]
Stasis Webifier II


Haha, Veers Belvar got told.

What he meant to say was:
How can a solo freighter pilot, without a single friend or alt, escape from a group of 20 or more intent on ganking him?

Also,
JF + cyno works pretty well too. J stands for "jump".

I liked the bit where he "thinks Concord would escort a bumped freighter to safety", therefore they should.

Apparently thinks he is the "Concord Whisperer" now. WTF.

But he's not. I am. They speak to me. What do they want?
They say "Free us - we want to gank the freighterzzzzzzzz....."
and then they'd help out with the gank, then insta-lock and warp scramble the pod until the gank squad can finish it off.

Free concord!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3303 - 2014-09-02 04:10:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Quote:

why would you gank an empty ship?



Because it's a space ship in a spaceship video game. Why did Han Solo feel the need to make the Kessel Run in just 7 parsecs?


Less than 12, you Philistine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3304 - 2014-09-02 04:11:04 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.

My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.


You claimed empty, tanked freighters were being killed. None of those are empty, none are tanked.

Why should it be able to escape a trap laid by 15 plus people without any help. This isn't a single player game.


I meant empty or tanked, not both...here are some examples..... https://zkillboard.com/kill/40982597/ (basically empty)
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40979249/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40978967/
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3305 - 2014-09-02 04:13:22 UTC


[/quote]

I gave you several a few pages back.[/quote]

Must have missed it, can you clarify? This is without assistance from friends, etc....[/quote]

This is an MMO, they are using a fleet, what makes you think you don't have to use at least one friend to counter the efforts of 25 people?[/quote]

Why does CONCORD come and save you if you get warp scrambled? Why don't they demand that you bring friends to help you? Because when people do bad things to you in highsec, CONCORD comes and kills them, and sets you free. Why should it matter if they pressed F5 to scram you, or used 3 machs to bump you so you can't align and warp off?[/quote]

Because if concord went after people bumping each other then the jita undock would be a graveyard.[/quote]

For sure....if you have been following (not a slight, I realize the thread is long) - I proposed that any gank victim get a 60 second period after CONCORD arrives where it can insta-warp away regardless of bumping. It would be like a pod. This would avoid the 4-4 stuff, and is easy to code, and makes sense that CONCORD arrives at the scene and escorts the victim safely to the next system. It would not protect autopiloters, or stop new gankers from shooting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3306 - 2014-09-02 04:14:19 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.

My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.


You claimed empty, tanked freighters were being killed. None of those are empty, none are tanked.

Why should it be able to escape a trap laid by 15 plus people without any help. This isn't a single player game.


I meant empty or tanked, not both...here are some examples..... https://zkillboard.com/kill/40982597/ (basically empty)
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40979249/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40978967/


They are being paid to gank freighters, that is where their money comes from.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3307 - 2014-09-02 04:14:49 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.

My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.


You claimed empty, tanked freighters were being killed. None of those are empty, none are tanked.

Why should it be able to escape a trap laid by 15 plus people without any help. This isn't a single player game.


I meant empty or tanked, not both...here are some examples..... https://zkillboard.com/kill/40982597/ (basically empty)
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40979249/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40978967/


So you've finally learned to provide evidence. I'm so proud. So that's 3 out of how many in August?

And why should a single player be able to escape a trap laid by 15+ people specifically designed to counter the ship they're flying without any help?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3308 - 2014-09-02 04:14:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.

My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.


You claimed empty, tanked freighters were being killed. None of those are empty, none are tanked.

Why should it be able to escape a trap laid by 15 plus people without any help. This isn't a single player game.


I meant empty or tanked, not both...here are some examples..... https://zkillboard.com/kill/40982597/ (basically empty)
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40979249/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40978967/


They are being paid to gank freighters, that is where their money comes from.


They get an SRP, but they don't actually make any money ganking empty freighters.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3309 - 2014-09-02 04:15:00 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
1. Experience is not proof.
You didn't ask for proof. You asked for a source. I gave you one.
Proof for why it works has already been posted.

Anyone with actual experience will be such a source (and no, you have no experience — all you have is outside observation of someone else not succeeding for reasons unknown to you).

Quote:
CONCORD punishes wrongful activity
No. CONCORD enforces cost on aggression. Period.

Quote:
I just posted them.
So two and by no-one that you cared to mention. That is not “a lot”.

Quote:
Compare the drop and the cost of the ships, and you will see they lost money. And my freighter question always involved 3 optimally bumping machariels, and an optimally responsive freighter. And how do you make money from ganking empty ships?
So provide numbers. Don't just ask others to do the work for you.

Actually no, it was not always that. Now you are adding “optimally responsive”, just as how you added “without help”. If you keep changing the requirements, your question becomes fallacious. Now, granted, it doesn't actually change anything — the freighter can escape anyway — but it means you are trying to alter the conditions to squeeze out a “win”, which means your argument is invalid.

The same way you make money from making pixels light up on a screen.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3310 - 2014-09-02 04:16:31 UTC
That would let me make myself immune to ganking or war targets or a wide variety of other things, by shooting my freighter with an alt in a noobship.

Are you really this dense? Are you actually this completely lacking in any self awareness?

What you proposed is even worse than your first idea. Not only because it's horribly easy to abuse to basically eliminate all PvP, but also because being invincible spits in the face of the founding principles of EVE Online.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3311 - 2014-09-02 04:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
For sure....if you have been following (not a slight, I realize the thread is long) - I proposed that any gank victim get a 60 second period after CONCORD arrives where it can insta-warp away regardless of bumping. It would be like a pod. This would avoid the 4-4 stuff, and is easy to code, and makes sense that CONCORD arrives at the scene and escorts the victim safely to the next system. It would not protect autopiloters, or stop new gankers from shooting.


And as has been explained to you so many times before (including by a Dev), CONCORD is not a victim's services agency. They have an exclusively reactive, punitive role.

Incidentally, you're free to provide webbing services to freighters if you don't like ganking.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3312 - 2014-09-02 04:16:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
why would you gank an empty ship?


Think about what you just asked...

If I'm sitting on a gate in lowsec and someone comes through with a hauler do I scan or convo the guy and ask if his cargo is worth me killing? No it's called PVP and Eve is a PVP game so I blow him up! No one would ask why did I kill this poor innocent person.

Change this to highsec and I'm a mean "Ganker" This is because some people think highsec should be or is PVP free. It's not and hopefully never will be! If I can kill a one billion ISK freighter who made himself an easy target by auto piloting with no tank... Why not?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3313 - 2014-09-02 04:17:03 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:



For sure....if you have been following (not a slight, I realize the thread is long) - I proposed that any gank victim get a 60 second period after CONCORD arrives where it can insta-warp away regardless of bumping. It would be like a pod. This would avoid the 4-4 stuff, and is easy to code, and makes sense that CONCORD arrives at the scene and escorts the victim safely to the next system. It would not protect autopiloters, or stop new gankers from shooting.


No. Protection of your freighter is down to you not NPCs. To get out of being bumped is as easy as simply having an alt in a web ship or having an interceptor fly out in front of a bumped freighter to provide a warp point.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3314 - 2014-09-02 04:18:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
That would let me make myself immune to ganking or war targets or a wide variety of other things, by shooting my freighter with an alt in a noobship.

Are you really this dense? Are you actually this completely lacking in any self awareness?

What you proposed is even worse than your first idea. Not only because it's horribly easy to abuse to basically eliminate all PvP, but also because being invincible spits in the face of the founding principles of EVE Online.


How is this any different than what is currently accomplished by shooting at yourself? All it means is that now once CONCORD comes you can't be bumped....everything else remains the same? How does that make you immune to ganking or war targets? They just can't bump you off your align once CONCORD is at the scene. Wartargets could still scram you, etc...

And buddy, try to keep it civil, thanks.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3315 - 2014-09-02 04:19:20 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.

My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.


You claimed empty, tanked freighters were being killed. None of those are empty, none are tanked.

Why should it be able to escape a trap laid by 15 plus people without any help. This isn't a single player game.


I meant empty or tanked, not both...here are some examples..... https://zkillboard.com/kill/40982597/ (basically empty)
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40979249/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40978967/


Ladies and gentlemen... Can someone point out what all three had in common?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3316 - 2014-09-02 04:20:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:



For sure....if you have been following (not a slight, I realize the thread is long) - I proposed that any gank victim get a 60 second period after CONCORD arrives where it can insta-warp away regardless of bumping. It would be like a pod. This would avoid the 4-4 stuff, and is easy to code, and makes sense that CONCORD arrives at the scene and escorts the victim safely to the next system. It would not protect autopiloters, or stop new gankers from shooting.


No. Protection of your freighter is down to you not NPCs. To get out of being bumped is as easy as simply having an alt in a web ship or having an interceptor fly out in front of a bumped freighter to provide a warp point.


I disagree, sorry. I think that CONCORD should react to wrongful activity in highsec as they would be expected to respond - mainly by helping the victim. It's not just some random isk sink there to blow ships up.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3317 - 2014-09-02 04:21:29 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
why would you gank an empty ship?


Think about what you just asked...

If I'm sitting on a gate in lowsec and someone comes through with a hauler do I scan or convo the guy and ask if his cargo is worth me killing? No it's called PVP and Eve is a PVP game so I blow him up! No one would ask why did I kill this poor innocent person.

Change this to highsec and I'm a mean "Ganker" This is because some people think highsec should be or is PVP free. It's not and hopefully never will be! If I can kill a one billion ISK freighter who made himself an easy target by auto piloting with no tank... Why not?




And what I'm saying is that by adjusting the risk/reward mechanics we can make it so that the gankers look for high value kills instead of blowing up empty ships, which I think is a more logical form of gameplay. It just requires some creativity and changes to the game mechanics.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3318 - 2014-09-02 04:21:52 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:



For sure....if you have been following (not a slight, I realize the thread is long) - I proposed that any gank victim get a 60 second period after CONCORD arrives where it can insta-warp away regardless of bumping. It would be like a pod. This would avoid the 4-4 stuff, and is easy to code, and makes sense that CONCORD arrives at the scene and escorts the victim safely to the next system. It would not protect autopiloters, or stop new gankers from shooting.


No. Protection of your freighter is down to you not NPCs. To get out of being bumped is as easy as simply having an alt in a web ship or having an interceptor fly out in front of a bumped freighter to provide a warp point.


I disagree, sorry. I think that CONCORD should react to wrongful activity in highsec as they would be expected to respond - mainly by helping the victim. It's not just some random isk sink there to blow ships up.


CONCORD was never meant to "help the victim"... They punish those the aggressor by destroying his or her ship and reducing their security status..
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3319 - 2014-09-02 04:22:08 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

How is this any different than what is currently accomplished by shooting at yourself?


He really is this stupid, folks.

Ok, since you can't find both of your brains cells to rub together and figure it out, I will spell it out for you. I'll try to use small words.

Your idea lets a ship have an immunity period alongside an insta warp, if a gank fails.

So I deliberately fail a gank against myself with an alt, any time I am in danger.

And I am thus invincible.

Congratulations, you broke quite literally the entire game.

Oh, and civility is given to civilized people. Not thumbless, ignorant monkeys.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3320 - 2014-09-02 04:23:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

How is this any different than what is currently accomplished by shooting at yourself?


He really is this stupid, folks.

Ok, since you can't find both of your brains cells to rub together and figure it out, I will spell it out for you. I'll try to use small words.

Your idea lets a ship have an immunity period alongside an insta warp, if a gank fails.

So I deliberately fail a gank against myself with an alt, any time I am in danger.

And I am thus invincible.

Congratulations, you broke quite literally the entire game.

Oh, and civility is given to civilized people. Not thumbless, ignorant monkeys.


WRONG...... my idea is to grant invicibility against bumping, AND ONLY AGAINST BUMPING. Clear now? Why do you insist on distorting what I say? I mean come on, that was pretty darn clear.

And feel free to stop calling me "stupid," thanks.