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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2961 - 2014-09-01 17:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today.
Prove it.

Quote:
To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too
No, they really weren't. If they were, they wouldn't be hauling while under wardecs, nor would they fall into such easily avoidable traps. You did notice that a lot of those victims were not victims of ganks, right?

Quote:
To our numbers person - Our operative statistic was 1.4 freighters being killed a day, but CODE alone seems to have taken out quit a few of them, and that number has been markedly increasing.
…except that you haven't provided any historical (and normalised) data that proves this supposed trend.

Quote:
Or you could intelligently examine the risk/reward and ask CCP to make appropriate changes.
This has already happened and CCP has already provided the answer. They are not the ones you wanted, though (which is no surprise since all your examinations are based on fallacies, hearsay, ignorance, and deep unfamiliarity with all things eve — not a solid basis for appropriate change).
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2962 - 2014-09-01 17:10:36 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today. Since I don't have time to respond to each troll, I will just make one composite post for ya'll.

To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too - but there isn't much you can do when pinned down by bumping and hit with wave after wave of gankers.

To our numbers person - Our operative statistic was 1.4 freighters being killed a day, but CODE alone seems to have taken out quit a few of them, and that number has been markedly increasing. This alone demonstrates that freighter ganking is increasing.



None of this answers my stats-based denial of your assertion that Blockade Runners, DSTs and Jump Freighters are useless.

Some of those figures prove that less than 5% of ganks in a class are Advanced cargo vessels.

You can argue this is due to their lower usage.

But considering the market demand I dont think that this is true.

I may not have figures for the amount of these ships in space but I have first hand experience of not being killed in all of them.


The fact that the playerbase is choosing to use freighters instead strongly supports the idea that freighter hauling is where the profit is (I don't see very many of the advanced ships in highsec). And market price may reflect underlying mineral supply and cost, not pent up demand. And as you can say, CODE has killed these ships as well, and quite effectively.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2963 - 2014-09-01 17:11:56 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
To go back 151 pages: NO, ganking has not become a problem. It's not too easy, it's not unbalanced. It's not bad or wrong or 'evil'.

The reason it hasn't become any of those things is because it CAN'T. It's a legal, condoned, allowed video game activity in a game that specifically allows it. In the same way that a mission runner can't run too many missions or a miner can't mine too many rocks, a ganker crew can't gank enough frieghters (full, empty, painted bright pink and wearing a tutu, whatever) to make ganking a 'problem'.

EVE features universal non-consensual pvp in space. CCP and freaking GOOGLE tell you this before you ever even try to install EVE Online. That means that at any moment you are in space, you can be engaged by another player for any reason that other player sees fit. It can be for profit, it can be for some other oppurtunity, or (because this is a video game) it can be fore that other guy to get his jollies. The game will not protect you fro this interaction, because non-consensual pvp is at the heart of EVe Online's game design.

You are free to dislike the fact that people who are not like you exist and paid 15 bucks to play a video game you have also chosen, but that's just a personality flaw on your side, not a problem with that actions of the other guys. If you don't like that EVE online is, at it's heart, a video game version of a mosh pit, the fault lies with you for choosing to play it, not with the game company that has ALWAYS produced the game the way it is, or the player base that pays for this specific kind of game.

TL;DR **** off of you don't like it you weak minded popinjay.


Or you could intelligently examine the risk/reward and ask CCP to make appropriate changes.....imagine that....



It has been exaimined, in 2003. It was fine to be appropriate for this kind of game and rightly left alone lol.

The point is, no one is going to agree with you except fringe 'protectionist' idiots who should not be playing this kind of game to begin with. CCP isn't foolish enough to change the actual spirit of the game to cater to lazy people to scarred of imaginary loss to properly play a video game.

If i were you (thank Icelandic Volcano God that I'm not), I'd be deepely ashamed of that fact that a video game's intentional design was some how so terrible to me that I had to post about it at such lenght. If someone thinks that EVE is so broken, only a fool continues to play it let alone pay for it.
Solecist Project
#2964 - 2014-09-01 17:12:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
As an added bonus, being irrelevant is pure poison to trolls. Twisted
Damn, this line makes you so sexy ... :D

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2965 - 2014-09-01 17:13:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today.
Prove it.

Quote:
To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too
No, they really weren't. If they were, they wouldn't be hauling while under wardecs, nor would they fall into such easily avoidable traps. You did notice that a lot of those victims were not victims of ganks, right?

Quote:
To our numbers person - Our operative statistic was 1.4 freighters being killed a day, but CODE alone seems to have taken out quit a few of them, and that number has been markedly increasing.
…except that you haven't provided any historical (and normalised) data that proves this supposed trend.



1. Not sure how I would "prove this." It's pretty obvious when they nastiness goes up, and we keep hearing people being derisively called "carebears."

2. I provided a killboard which by itself nearly equals or exceeds the 1.4 number. Not sure how your math skills are, but somehow I feel that total freighter kills > CODE freighter kills > 1.4 per day would in fact prove an increase. But feel free to go use zkillboard or what not and tell us how many freighters have died per day last month, and we can look for a trend. I don't spend time proving things that are obvious to all, because what is the point really?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2966 - 2014-09-01 17:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
The fact that the playerbase is choosing to use freighters instead strongly supports the idea that freighter hauling is where the profit is (I don't see very many of the advanced ships in highsec).
It also strongly supports the idea that the chances of losing one are vanishingly small. The reason you don't see many of the advanced ships is because they're being flown properly — your not seeing them is the entire point.

Veers Belvar wrote:
Not sure how I would "prove this."
So you have no basis for your claim, then. Ok.

Quote:
I provided a killboard which by itself nearly equals or exceeds the 1.4 number.
So you didn't provide any kind of historical or normalised data, and thus can't show the trend you're suggesting.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2967 - 2014-09-01 17:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Veers Belvar wrote:

The fact that the playerbase is choosing to use freighters instead strongly supports the idea that freighter hauling is where the profit is (I don't see very many of the advanced ships in highsec). And market price may reflect underlying mineral supply and cost, not pent up demand. And as you can say, CODE has killed these ships as well, and quite effectively.


You dont see cloaked transports, scram-defended transports and jumps ships in high sec, imagine that.

You dont think that possibly, just possibly, transporting through lowsec in an appropriate vessel might be quicker AND more profitable than hauling through the known choke and gank spots of the High Sec Highways? You know, where pirates hang out because idiots shift expensive cargos in weak ships with no defense?

"And as you can say, CODE has killed these ships as well, and quite effectively."

I dont consider a 20/1 ratio effective

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Solecist Project
#2968 - 2014-09-01 17:14:39 UTC
I start to think this guy is nothing else but an CODE alt failing at proper marketing.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2969 - 2014-09-01 17:15:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today. Since I don't have time to respond to each troll, I will just make one composite post for ya'll.

To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too - but there isn't much you can do when pinned down by bumping and hit with wave after wave of gankers.


If they died then they are not good haulers.
Veers Belvar wrote:

To our numbers person - Our operative statistic was 1.4 freighters being killed a day, but CODE alone seems to have taken out quit a few of them, and that number has been markedly increasing. This alone demonstrates that freighter ganking is increasing.


It has never been as low as 1.5 per day.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2970 - 2014-09-01 17:16:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
To go back 151 pages: NO, ganking has not become a problem. It's not too easy, it's not unbalanced. It's not bad or wrong or 'evil'.

The reason it hasn't become any of those things is because it CAN'T. It's a legal, condoned, allowed video game activity in a game that specifically allows it. In the same way that a mission runner can't run too many missions or a miner can't mine too many rocks, a ganker crew can't gank enough frieghters (full, empty, painted bright pink and wearing a tutu, whatever) to make ganking a 'problem'.

EVE features universal non-consensual pvp in space. CCP and freaking GOOGLE tell you this before you ever even try to install EVE Online. That means that at any moment you are in space, you can be engaged by another player for any reason that other player sees fit. It can be for profit, it can be for some other oppurtunity, or (because this is a video game) it can be fore that other guy to get his jollies. The game will not protect you fro this interaction, because non-consensual pvp is at the heart of EVe Online's game design.

You are free to dislike the fact that people who are not like you exist and paid 15 bucks to play a video game you have also chosen, but that's just a personality flaw on your side, not a problem with that actions of the other guys. If you don't like that EVE online is, at it's heart, a video game version of a mosh pit, the fault lies with you for choosing to play it, not with the game company that has ALWAYS produced the game the way it is, or the player base that pays for this specific kind of game.

TL;DR **** off of you don't like it you weak minded popinjay.


Or you could intelligently examine the risk/reward and ask CCP to make appropriate changes.....imagine that....



It has been exaimined, in 2003. It was fine to be appropriate for this kind of game and rightly left alone lol.

The point is, no one is going to agree with you except fringe 'protectionist' idiots who should not be playing this kind of game to begin with. CCP isn't foolish enough to change the actual spirit of the game to cater to lazy people to scarred of imaginary loss to properly play a video game.

If i were you (thank Icelandic Volcano God that I'm not), I'd be deepely ashamed of that fact that a video game's intentional design was some how so terrible to me that I had to post about it at such lenght. If someone thinks that EVE is so broken, only a fool continues to play it let alone pay for it.


CCP has already made multiple changes to ganking - CONCORD can no longer be tanked, etc... The game is not static, the mechanics are constantly being tweaked. And I'm proud to be someone who helps new players learn how to enjoy the game, and not get griefed into unsubbing by suicide gankers looking for tears. I'm proud to be part of the anti-ganker community, proud to give fitting advice, proud to come rescue gank targets, and proud to advocate for positive change on the forums. Because I enjoy this game I will continue to push for changes that make it more new player friendly, and changes that see CONCORD properly performing its role as a "law enforcement agency."
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2971 - 2014-09-01 17:17:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today. Since I don't have time to respond to each troll, I will just make one composite post for ya'll.

To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too - but there isn't much you can do when pinned down by bumping and hit with wave after wave of gankers.


If they died then they are not good haulers.
Veers Belvar wrote:

To our numbers person - Our operative statistic was 1.4 freighters being killed a day, but CODE alone seems to have taken out quit a few of them, and that number has been markedly increasing. This alone demonstrates that freighter ganking is increasing.


It has never been as low as 1.5 per day.


That number is from your own side....please scroll back and you will see the source.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2972 - 2014-09-01 17:20:53 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


To our expert hauler - Check out Loyalanon's killboard. A lot of the victims were good haulers too - but there isn't much you can do when pinned down by bumping and hit with wave after wave of gankers.


2 things here.

Yes, there are things you can do. They all invovled having (or buying) friends. One half of your flawed philosophy stems from seomthing I've come to call "solo player entitlement" ie the idea that a solo player is OWED something in this multiplayer game.

ie, you are SUPPOSED to die when you are solo and a lot of people want you dead and have guns.

The second thing is that, even ignoring the above, there are lots of situations what other people can make you 'not be able to do anything'.

There are "hell camps" in null sec where you can't get out of a station, can't refit, can't repair, can't do anything. There are bubble camps done by a few dudes in dictors that can shut down a npc null sec stations. There are many other ways to shut people completly down in this game.

Most times you don't get 151 pages of "omg ccp help me" about it, becuase more players aren't so pitiful as to let what other people do stop them. It's likewise for haulers, good, smart haulers find new ways to do things, like using alts and spillting loads among smaller ships, using jump frieghters to skirt around low sec minimizing their time in high sec on the 1st place, or setting up manufaturing in different places to negate the need for bulk hauling.

In short, GOOD players play the game, bad players complain on the forums (even on the face of CCP itself telling them to HTFU).
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2973 - 2014-09-01 17:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Veers Belvar wrote:
Or you could intelligently examine the risk/reward and ask CCP to make appropriate changes.....imagine that....

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

The bumping mechanic is fine, there's a 30 page initial discussion thread started by CCP in C&P, specifically asking for questions, opinions and feed back about bumping, you're bringing nothing new to the table.

There's also a 22 page thread discussing CCPs official position on bunping, which was reached after CCP reviewed the thread I linked above, you've already discovered that one and necroed it, with a crosspost. Ugh

Ganking is fine. A very well respected CCP Dev has made his personal opinion abundantly clear on Eve staying true to its core, of which ganking is a part, and has always been a part; and he's also summed up the general feeling amongst his fellow Devs in another post.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2974 - 2014-09-01 17:21:43 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


That number is from your own side....please scroll back and you will see the source.


Please provide link, I cannot find what you are speaking of.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2975 - 2014-09-01 17:32:28 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


CCP has already made multiple changes to ganking - CONCORD can no longer be tanked, etc... The game is not static, the mechanics are constantly being tweaked. And I'm proud to be someone who helps new players learn how to enjoy the game, and not get griefed into unsubbing by suicide gankers looking for tears. I'm proud to be part of the anti-ganker community, proud to give fitting advice, proud to come rescue gank targets, and proud to advocate for positive change on the forums. Because I enjoy this game I will continue to push for changes that make it more new player friendly, and changes that see CONCORD properly performing its role as a "law enforcement agency."



Ah, I get it, the pathological white knight.

I dispise your kind even though I don't personally partake in ganking (or scamming or 'piracy' of any kind, I am an explorer and mission runner). I've trained several people to survine in PVE careers in this game.

White Knight types don't do it because it's the right thing to do, they do it because they are looking for a way to feel superior to others who make different choices. The attitude reveals a person with low self esteem trying to fill a whole in their lives by pretending to be the good guy.

It is, in fact, no different an attitude than the real life "nice guy" or "Captain Save-a-Hoe". You know, those guys who pretend to be 'nice' but are actually schemeing D-bags trying to secure benifits for themselves. in this case to benefit is being able to say "see, im a good guy, those other guys are bad".

I've never known a 'white knight' type who understood that 'making the game friendly for new players' is a Death Sentence for a game like EVE. Yo can push for 'change' all you like, the rest of us will continue to counsel CCP to not be dumb enough to destory thier own game because so many games are too mentally weak to play it as it exists.
Solecist Project
#2976 - 2014-09-01 17:35:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
...
Oh I just realised I said "Jenn".

I didn't mean you, Jenn, I meant Jenn-ifer en Marland from anti-ganking. (:

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2977 - 2014-09-01 17:46:27 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today.

there are no suicide gankers in nullsec. also, who someone is has nothing to do with what they say.

Veers Belvar wrote:
I'm proud to advocate for positive change on the forums. Because I enjoy this game I will continue to push for changes that make it more new player friendly, and changes that see CONCORD properly performing its role as a "law enforcement agency."


you're not advocating for positive change. why would you ask for the game to be changed at a fundamental level if you already enjoy it? you do understand that people are likely to have joined the game because of what it is, not what you think it should be (and fail to demonstrate why) ?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2978 - 2014-09-01 17:48:26 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
there are no suicide gankers in nullsec.

this (care)bears repeating
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2979 - 2014-09-01 17:49:21 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again...the nullsec suicide gank troll patrol is out in force today.

there are no suicide gankers in nullsec. also, who someone is has nothing to do with what they say.

Veers Belvar wrote:
I'm proud to advocate for positive change on the forums. Because I enjoy this game I will continue to push for changes that make it more new player friendly, and changes that see CONCORD properly performing its role as a "law enforcement agency."


you're not advocating for positive change. why would you ask for the game to be changed at a fundamental level if you already enjoy it? you do understand that people are likely to have joined the game because of what it is, not what you think it should be (and fail to demonstrate why) ?


I enjoy the overall game, but think that certain mechanics need tweaking. I also think that CODE is pushing things in a negative direction by, inter alia, ganking empty frreighters. A lot of people join this game for the cooperative PvE aspects, not to subject themselves to endless suicide ganking by -10 sec status folks looking for tears.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2980 - 2014-09-01 17:51:35 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I also think that CODE is pushing things in a negative direction by, inter alia, ganking empty frreighters.


So when other people did it, that was ok?

When gankers only ever came at you without wearing an armband that said "Im a ganker, I will kill you if I want", that was ok?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann