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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2741 - 2014-08-31 01:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Preventing you from warping
…isn't what it does. You can warp away just fine.
It also doesn't shut down your MWDs or MJDs.

So it actually offers 0% of the capabilities of a scrambler.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2742 - 2014-08-31 01:56:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Thanks you for completely missing the point. Criminal activity, and unlawful entrapment is by definition criminal activity, should draw CONCORD response.
…but it's not entrapment (much less anything unlawful) since you can, you know, just go away.

Quote:
My point is that CCP is failing to follow it's own game design by not punishing unlawful entrapment (which every police force in the world would combat).
Bad news: CONCORD is not a police force, and this is not “the world”. So your point makes no sense since you are asking CCP to follow a completely unrelated and irrelevant “design”.


Actually, per CCP Falcon "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive." So CONCORD is designed to act as a police force,

And, from what it seems, Orcas and freighters are actually unable to warp if 2-3 bumpers bump optimally (feel free to chime in on this. CCP Devs).
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2743 - 2014-08-31 01:57:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Preventing you from warping
…isn't what it does. You can warp away just fine.


Not if the bumpers make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to warp.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2744 - 2014-08-31 01:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not if the bumpers make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to warp.
They can't.

Quote:
Actually, per CCP Falcon "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive." So CONCORD is designed to act as a police force,
No, it's designed to act as a cost enforcement mechanism. Per CCP Falcon, the only shared characteristic between CONCORD and a law enforcement agency is that it offers a deterrent. CONCORD does this by enforcing cost; police by threatening with judicial processing.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2745 - 2014-08-31 01:59:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not if the bumpers make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to warp.
They can't.


Certainly with 3 bumpers optimally bumping a freighter it is absolutely 100% impossible for that freighter to warp off.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2746 - 2014-08-31 02:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Certainly with 3 bumpers optimally bumping a freighter it is absolutely 100% impossible for that freighter to warp off.

Nope. As long as you have at least 1 point of warp strength, you can warp off. Bumping removes zero points of warp strength.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#2747 - 2014-08-31 02:03:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Certainly with 3 bumpers optimally bumping a freighter it is absolutely 100% impossible for that freighter to warp off.

Nope. As long as you have at least 1 point of warp strength, you can warp off. Bumping removes zero points of warp strength.

I'm pretty sure you missed the point there.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2748 - 2014-08-31 02:06:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Certainly with 3 bumpers optimally bumping a freighter it is absolutely 100% impossible for that freighter to warp off.

Nope. As long as you have at least 1 point of warp strength, you can warp off. Bumping removes zero points of warp strength.


The mere fact that you are still able to press the "jump" button doesn't change the fact that your ship isn't jumping. The fact that this is due to ships bumping you off your align, as opposed to scramming you, is truly a distinction without a difference.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2749 - 2014-08-31 02:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Derrick Miles wrote:
I'm pretty sure you missed the point there.
The point is that Veers Belvar absolutely refuses to accept the very simple fact that bumping is not illegal and never will be. He also refuses to accept the very simple fact that bumping does not make impossible to warp.

I suppose the point could be that he's trolling, but that just makes it more worth-while to use him as a proxy for all the nutters who sincerely believe the same nonsense.

Veers Belvar wrote:
The mere fact that you are still able to press the "jump" button doesn't change the fact that your ship isn't jumping.
That's because it's not actually lit up at that point — you should probably make sure to be in range with the gate or beacon before trying it.

Quote:
The fact that this is due to ships bumping you off your align, as opposed to scramming you, is truly a distinction without a difference.
No, the fact is that aligning has nothing to do with jumping. Aligning has to do with warping. Bumping does not prevent warping, and that's the most simple fact of them all.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#2750 - 2014-08-31 02:07:57 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again.

I would say that a 100% ideal response includes not jumping into a system with 10-20 very well known gankers.

It needs around 15 players/chars and more to gank a Freighter or Orca in Highsec while it needs 1 additional char to secure the path of the Freighter or Orca. And you still think this is too much effort for the Freighter/Orca and that CCP should change the game once again in their favor?

Evil RatKid
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2751 - 2014-08-31 02:10:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
I'm pretty sure you missed the point there.
The point is that Veers Belvar absolutely refuses to accept the very simple fact that bumping is not illegal and never will be. He also refuses to accept the very simple fact that bumping does not make impossible to warp.

I suppose the point could be that he's trolling, but that just makes it more worth-while to use him as a proxy for all the nutters who sincerely believe the same nonsense.


The fact that you steadfastly refuse to accept that bumping in this context, which is 100% functionally equivalent in every way to warp scrambling, and that the treatment of it by CONCORD is directly inconsistent with CCP Falcson's statment that "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive" is the real troll.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2752 - 2014-08-31 02:11:14 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again.

I would say that a 100% ideal response includes not jumping into a system with 10-20 very well known gankers.

It needs around 15 players/chars and more to gank a Freighter or Orca in Highsec while it needs 1 additional char to secure the path of the Freighter or Orca. And you still think this is too much effort for the Freighter/Orca and that CCP should change the game once again in their favor?


CONCORD response does not depend on the quality if your decisionmaking. They respond to criminal activity in highsec 100% of the time.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2753 - 2014-08-31 02:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
The fact that you steadfastly refuse to accept that bumping in this context, which is 100% functionally equivalent in every way to warp scrambling
…aside from not affecting your warp strength and not prohibiting you from warping and not shutting down your MWD and not shutting down your MJD. So that makes it 0% functionally equivalent to warp scrambling.

Quote:
and that the treatment of it by CONCORD is directly inconsistent with CCP Falcson's statment that "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive" is the real troll.
How is it inconsistent? It creates a deterrent, and it does so in a reactive manner, just like he said.

How is it “a real troll” to point out the realities of the situation? Just because you refuse to accept how things actually work does not make it a troll to explain these things to you.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2754 - 2014-08-31 02:13:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

CONCORD response does not depend on the quality if your decisionmaking. They respond to criminal activity in highsec 100% of the time.


Correct.

Ergo, bumping is not criminal activity.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2755 - 2014-08-31 02:15:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

CONCORD response does not depend on the quality if your decisionmaking. They respond to criminal activity in highsec 100% of the time.


Correct.

Ergo, bumping is not criminal activity.


Unlawful imprisonment is criminal activity.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2756 - 2014-08-31 02:17:23 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

CONCORD response does not depend on the quality if your decisionmaking. They respond to criminal activity in highsec 100% of the time.


Correct.

Ergo, bumping is not criminal activity.


Unlawful imprisonment is criminal activity.


If it were, then CONCORD would respond to it.

Since they don't, clearly you are defining it incorrectly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2757 - 2014-08-31 02:17:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
The fact that you steadfastly refuse to accept that bumping in this context, which is 100% functionally equivalent in every way to warp scrambling
…aside from not affecting your warp strength and not prohibiting you from warping and not shutting down your MWD and not shutting down your MJD. So that makes it 0% functionally equivalent to warp scrambling.

Quote:
and that the treatment of it by CONCORD is directly inconsistent with CCP Falcson's statment that "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive" is the real troll.
How is it inconsistent? It creates a deterrent, and it does so in a reactive manner, just like he said.

How is it “a real troll” to point out the realities of the situation? Just because you refuse to accept how things actually work does not make it a troll to explain these things to you.


The fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for your ship to warp off is a criminal act, and CONCORD is not responding to that is the problem. Whether accomplished by scramming, or by bumping, the fact that for 15 minutes your ship is unable to leave the system is by definition unlawful imprisonment, and a criminal act. End of story. Which means that CONCORD, per CCP Falcon's statement, should respond.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2758 - 2014-08-31 02:18:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

CONCORD response does not depend on the quality if your decisionmaking. They respond to criminal activity in highsec 100% of the time.


Correct.

Ergo, bumping is not criminal activity.


Unlawful imprisonment is criminal activity.


If it were, then CONCORD would respond to it.

Since they don't, clearly you are defining it incorrectly.


Yes sir, congratulations, you have now discovered (as did I) that there is a flaw in the game that should be corrected. I am glad that you support my change.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2759 - 2014-08-31 02:19:45 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Yes sir, congratulations, you have now discovered (as did I) that there is a flaw in the game that should be corrected. I am glad that you support my change.


No, I'm saying that your reasoning is incorrect.

CONCORD, without fail, responds to criminal activity in highsec.

Since they do not respond to bumping, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that CCP does not consider bumping to be criminal activity.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2760 - 2014-08-31 02:19:46 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Unlawful imprisonment is criminal activity.

…and bumping qualifies as neither of those.

Quote:
The fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for your ship to warp off is a criminal act
That's not a fact, since it's not impossible to warp off. Nor is it a criminal act to keep someone from warping off.

Quote:
CONCORD is not responding to that is the problem
No, it's not a problem that CONCORD doesn't respond to legal activities.

Quote:
the fact that for 15 minutes your ship is unable to leave the system is by definition unlawful imprisonment, and a criminal act.
None of those are facts, though. And just like CCP Falcon stated, CONCORD acts as a reactive deterrent, so there's nothing strange or inconsistent about their behaviour.