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[Kronos] Freighters and Jump Freighters Rebalance [Updated]

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2014-05-17 16:48:36 UTC
Oh -- I think I answered my own question. The JF agility adjustment is meant to compensate for the potential for rigging the Jump Freighter for agility.

My question then becomes "do you think that there is a compelling reason for anyone, ever, to rig for agility?" Jump freighter usage is all about cargo, cargo, cargo. Increasing your cargo reduces the number of trips you have to make, period, which serves to both reduce the amount of fuel you consume and the amount of time you spend running cargo. Messing with the agility only really serves to increase the amount of time you spend doing nothing, without significantly affecting the amount of freight you move.

The only real situation in which you'd want to rig for agility is if you had a habit of jumping to beacons a lot, I guess. Even then, the fuel and time savings of just rigging for cargo would vastly overwhelm the short amount of time you'd save aligning at a beacon.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tia Hibra
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-05-17 16:48:43 UTC
So, on one hand, you want to move industry AWAY from the major hubs.

On the other hand, you nerf freighters cargo capacity, requiring capital sized rigs.

Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#23 - 2014-05-17 16:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Batolemaeus
Wow, that's a pretty terrible nerf to JF.

So, the cost for a jF is now higher due to the need for t2 capital cargo rigs, their agility is worse, and you want to double/triple/quadruple (really, the sky is the limit here) fuel costs for them.

I'm really not impressed. Any nerf to JF is a direct nerf to 0.0, and more severe the further out you go. With no apparent thrust from CCP to decrease highsec dependency of 0.0, I don't quite get what this is supposed to accomplish.

//edit:

Quite the nerf to freighter too. Pretty bad.

If anything, both t1 and t2 freighters needed a healthy buff. T1 freighter's EHP has been the same for ages but the effort to gank them has steadily gone down with the introduction of the talos, improved catalyst and rigs. There is no compelling reason to rig for speed and rigging for EHP doesn't increase EHP nearly enough to matter. So the Orca is still the only somewhat high-cargo transport for valuable cargo unless people have the cash for a JF.

Overall, this seem to be poorly thought out. What are you trying to achieve?
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-05-17 16:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
This is stupid. You're nerfing multiple possible attributes to compensate for the ability to improve those attributes with rigs, but you only have two slots and are going to have to pick one (maybe two) of those attributes to improve with said rigs.

This is a blatant nerf, and not in a way that makes sense depending on what you are trying to accomplish (e.g. a proper range or cargo reduction).

If you want something more balanced, keep the tank changes and cargo changes but remove the agility changes. That being said, requiring dual t2 capital rigs to get approximately the same cargo capacity before is ridiculous.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2014-05-17 16:55:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Actually the tank on your JF is about the same as before, thanks to the extra resists. So you get one of the three for free! Blink
…but it then gets gutshot by the Nozzle Joints I will have to fit to make it not behave like a drunken cow.

Quote:
But yes, the fact that this is a small reduction in Jump Freighter power is completely intended.
Figured as much. Lol

Paranoid Loyd wrote:
The people have got what they asked for, let the bloodbath begin Twisted
Yeah… again, there's a reason why I've always been against this idea.

Silvetica Dian wrote:
That wasn't the point.
No one thought that getting rigs would leave us with a lower cargobay.
Weeeeell… exactly what it would do and how was always up for grabs, but that you'd end with a net change to the ship that made it worse than before was entirely expected. People just couldn't get that idea through their heads and thought that somehow rigs would only make things better in one area you could pick.

It's exactly what Loyd said — be careful what you ask for and all that. Sad
Abulurd Boniface
CORE BUSINESS
#26 - 2014-05-17 16:58:08 UTC
My experience with ships is that no sooner am I ready to use a certain class [not by: sp, by the requirement to use it] as CCP nerfs the ship.

Was it something I said?
Kaeden Dourhand
Pagids Legion
#27 - 2014-05-17 16:58:38 UTC
As if freighters weren't expensive enough, now you have to spend big dolla for capital rigs to make them even remotely useful. Fabulous
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2014-05-17 16:58:57 UTC
Querns wrote:
Oh -- I think I answered my own question. The JF agility adjustment is meant to compensate for the potential for rigging the Jump Freighter for agility.

My question then becomes "do you think that there is a compelling reason for anyone, ever, to rig for agility?" Jump freighter usage is all about cargo, cargo, cargo.
I will, if I keep it (which is questionable).

I picked a JF over a normal freighter for highsec use because it offered higher survivability and faster movement. The higher cargo was pointless since that just made it more worth-while to attack, and I wanted that improved survivability and movement exactly to avoid that problem.

Eternal Error wrote:
This is stupid.
It is also exactly what was to be expected by anyone who actually engage a couple of neurons on the topic.

Eff it. I'm just going to use this thread to post a big “I told you so!” snipe on the top of every page. Lol
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-05-17 16:59:43 UTC
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
My experience with ships is that no sooner am I ready to use a certain class [not by: sp, by the requirement to use it] as CCP nerfs the ship.

Was it something I said?

I have only used my JF for one trip to null and back Sad
Now this.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#30 - 2014-05-17 17:01:35 UTC
Everybody! Speculate now in capital rigs!
Boltorano
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#31 - 2014-05-17 17:01:35 UTC
The cargo reduction from the HP rigs seemed a completely sensible penalty for using them.

This, this is just meh.
JAF Anders
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-05-17 17:01:46 UTC
Maybe you can't break up Tech II production, but man, you can sure wash out Tech II demand.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Dave Stark
#33 - 2014-05-17 17:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Steijn wrote:
sorry, but that is nothing more than a massive nerf.

well it's something people asked for, repeatedly.

they were told to be careful what they wished for.
Perseus Parker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-05-17 17:03:44 UTC
Are there going to be any compensating changes to maximum contract volume from this?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2014-05-17 17:04:26 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Everybody! Speculate now in capital rigs!

Anyone want to buy a Nomad?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2014-05-17 17:04:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Querns wrote:
Oh -- I think I answered my own question. The JF agility adjustment is meant to compensate for the potential for rigging the Jump Freighter for agility.

My question then becomes "do you think that there is a compelling reason for anyone, ever, to rig for agility?" Jump freighter usage is all about cargo, cargo, cargo.
I will, if I keep it (which is questionable).

I picked a JF over a normal freighter for highsec use because it offered higher survivability and faster movement. The higher cargo was pointless since that just made it more worth-while to attack, and I wanted that improved survivability and movement exactly to avoid that problem.

Why not rig it for warp speed, instead? You spend a lot more time in warp then you do aligning.

Regarding the safety angle, rigging for hull HP is going to be a lot more effective at safeguarding you than align. Any serious freighter suicide ganker utilizes suicide newbie ships with a point to shut off your warp and stop your align before initiating a bump. Your align time won't be particularly useful in saving you when your align is already terrible (pre- and post-change.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#37 - 2014-05-17 17:05:55 UTC
These changes are ******* stupid. Can you stop just changing things to change things? It does not validate your work to be screwing up the things that are right when there's other ships that actually need the rebalancing efforts.

Also, again these changes are at cross odds with the supposed intent to make localized production more possible in null- YOU STILL WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO IMPORT/EXPORT.


So your solution?
LOL EVERYTHING USES MORE FUEL AND ALL THE JFS CAN HOLD LESS AND ARE LESS AGILE


Stop swinging around like a 5yo in the dark with a baseball bat. This isn't quality balancing, it's dogshit
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2014-05-17 17:05:57 UTC
Querns wrote:

Why not rig it for warp speed, instead? You spend a lot more time in warp then you do aligning.

you're vunerable when you align but not when you're in warp
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2014-05-17 17:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
Quote:
Because Jump Freighters only have two rig slots their maximum cargo is only going to be about 4% higher than current (with T2 rigs)



RHEA
Most other JF lose about 75,000m3 to 78,000m3 base cargo
Rhea loses 87,000m3 base

That means Rhea gains about 1% cargo with T2 rigs
382,000m3 would be the $5 increase with T2 rigs instead of the current 371,000m3 proposed

Rhea use the most fuel by far or is fuel being normalized? like carriers, dreads etc??
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2014-05-17 17:07:34 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Querns wrote:

Why not rig it for warp speed, instead? You spend a lot more time in warp then you do aligning.

you're vunerable when you align but not when you're in warp

Sure, but even rigged, the align time of a Jump Freighter is awful enough that anyone trying to gank you will have ample time to mess with you.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.