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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#121 - 2014-04-07 17:44:46 UTC
CYNABAL

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
12.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff was (10%)

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
15% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage was (10%)

Role Bonus:
30% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire was (25%)


Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 820 PWG(-280), 335 CPU(-15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2330 / 1600(-725) / 2065
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1415 / 490000(-1250) / 2.88
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 263(+6) / .45(-.0045) / 9047000(+200000) / 5.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20 (-30)/ 20 (-30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47km(+2km) / 390(-33) / 7
Sensor strength: 18(+2)
Signature radius: 100(-10)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#122 - 2014-04-07 17:44:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.



Maybe consider giving it a Warp-speed role bonus?
Dramiel gets Ceptor speed,
Cyna gets Frig speed,
Mach gets Cruiser speed?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#123 - 2014-04-07 17:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Wrt 100mn phantasm

100mn cynabal is (was) a thing. 7.5% tracking bonused lasers track as well as unbonused autocannons (slightly better in fact)
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#124 - 2014-04-07 17:45:56 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.


Awesome changes Rise

I have no overall complaint about 90% webs, I think they are fine. However apparently Rise thinks that 90% webs on the Blood Raiders are the problem in a world where 90% webs on Serpentis ships are what people run into and complain about. Then proceeds to buff said Serpentis ships, while neutering the Blood Raiders. Try to stop and think before you post next time.
Naomi Anthar
#125 - 2014-04-07 17:49:40 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Where's Dinsdale, this is yet another DEVASTATION of sentry drones by the null-sec mafia.

In seriousness though, the PG amounts on Cynabal and Gila are worrying me a lot.

Gila used to completely forgo any missiles since it was focused on the sentry range and lack of CPU after drone module. While these super-bonused mediums do a lot of damage, the new Gila gets a very strong missile DPS bonus, but sort of lacks the powergrid to do anything with that. I have to EFT it up a bit but it just seems pretty awkward.

On Cynabal as others have stated already it's pretty disappointing since the ship wasn't terribly strong before. It also basically removes the kiting arty cynabal, a niche role for the ship which I really enjoyed. With the other fast cruisers (namely vagabond) as strong as they are, it's hard for me to justify this nerf.



You are trolling or what : 12 effective medium drones + 6 effective launchers ( as many as you get on ashimmu - and majority of its dps comes from those turrets) is not enough ? hell even if you mount standard rocket launchers/ lml instead of rapids - damage is still going to be substantial.

YES people forget you can use rocket launchers/ light missile launchers on such boat . And sure you won't lack pwg/cpu for those.

But it does not mean you won't be able to fit rapids. Can't eft thing now tho.

But any complains on Gila performance are joke right ?
I don't complain myself i still have to sell many worms/gilas/rattles ... But don't get too crazy.


Too overpowered hull will get nerfed very fast aswell. Keep it just overpowered,
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#126 - 2014-04-07 17:50:14 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.


Awesome changes Rise


so its ovepoweredness is determined by how many people use it?


see drone assist. 9 years no one useses it its fine... 2013 his and blammo!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2014-04-07 17:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.


Awesome changes Rise


so its ovepoweredness is determined by how many people use it?


In EVE, yes, when its broken, everybody uses it, if everybody isn't using it, its probably not really broken and just strong in a certain niche of the game, that niche might happen to be where you are, but I'm sorry, EVE needs more ships that are strong in a certain area and weak in others, its called uniqueness and it makes the game better than everything being some generic hodgepodge of our standard stats.

Serpentis ships excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2014-04-07 17:51:24 UTC
The Phantasm is literally a Phantasm now
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#129 - 2014-04-07 17:51:34 UTC
also besides having the correct agility and mass figures thus correct align time could we also see if there align time has changed at all please??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#130 - 2014-04-07 17:52:04 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.


Awesome changes Rise


so its ovepoweredness is determined by how many people use it?


In EVE, yes, when its broken, everybody uses it, if everybody isn't using it, its probably not really broken and just strong in a certain niche of the game, that niche might happen to be where you're, but I'm sorry, EVE needs more ships that are strong in a certain area and weak in others, its called uniqueness and it makes the game better than everything being some generic hodgepodge of our standard stats.

Serpentis ships excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.



Serpentis ships Remote doomsdays on bubble immune titans excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2014-04-07 17:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kmelx
BadAssMcKill wrote:
True true, however the Vigilant is only going to get max ~18km webs while the Loki gets like 47km

You also have less mids to play around with depending on the configuration less tank but more speed and more dps

But I've never really seen 90% webs are broken, sure there could be some balancing effort made but its a nice bit of flavor and makes Serpentis ships useful


At 18k on a non regional gate, with a Vigi at zero it's going to have coverage over pretty much every place you can spawn, if it webs you your going nowhere, the camp is then for all intents and purposes inescable as soon as the second web lands.

In WH space virtually all combat takes place on a WH and within a 15km3 volume of space, so a properly fit vigi, (2 or 3 web) on zero will pull you down to an absurdly slow velocity, once you get a target ship down to below 38m/s cap guns will track you very well and you will explode.

In the arenas/situations I've seen the ship being used in, it dominates the field because the bonus is absurdly OP and it does not scale well, hence my proposal to have the web strength falloff as the hull size increases.

There are other possible solutions to this problem, like the one Michael proposed, or you could simply only allow one bonused web to be fitted to the hull, although this would not scale well, as people would just put more hulls on the field imo.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-04-07 17:52:49 UTC
I am not a fan of the Gila change. I mean Medium drones would really need an AMAZING balance to even begin to make up for what it is currently. At the moment the GIla is the mini-Rattlesnake. Solid tank, great drones, highly versatile.

I don't see this change being the same.

Bandwidth for only 4 unbonused light drones means dealing with Frigs will be painful, even more so as a DRONE BOAT.. And I don't like droneboats being FORCED to use a specific type of drone regardless of situation.

Here's my idea, since clearly you don't want to have it fielding Sentries/Heavies as effectively.

Change the bonus from MEDIUM drones, to ALL drones. It'll still be only able to field 2 Mediums, or 4 Lights. But at least the lights will be bonused, and able to remain effective against frigs.

The other things to remember about these drone changes. CCP what you are doing is Locking these ships into a PVE role forever, as it denies them the ability to use their drones for EWAR.. Being able to field 5 light ECM drones, or any other drones should CCP get around to making them, you know, useful, is a big deal. It gives you the chance to get out of trouble, or to hold a target at bay.
Now I know the Gila is a PVE Queen now as it is, but it will only be moso now, after this. Which is kind of a shame given that it's a PIRATE hull.

Maybe a hull bonus to the effectiveness of ECM/Neut/Web/etc drones too ? Might open up a lot of new doors for it outside of a just a mission queen.
Danny DCO
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#133 - 2014-04-07 17:53:05 UTC
Gila Secunda died quietly but painful today.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#134 - 2014-04-07 17:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
The Phantasm is a broken concept imo. What is the point in having all that speed if the lasers cannot track and the shield bumps up the signature. And I notice the increase in low slots, so are we expected to armour tank this thing now?

Sansha just seems like a completely broken concept now.

And lol at all the people getting excited that the Phantasm will be travelling some ridiculous speed, completely forgetting the fact that it is not a tengu or a loki fitted with missiles, so your going to be hitting f all.

Edit - Why not just balance the armour and shield of the sansha ships now, including the succubus, because if you are seriously wanting to offer people a dual option to tank, then the stats should reflect that.


You are talking like almost mwd speed that is not getting owned my scram is not godsend thing ... mkay.
You can manually adjust your speed while flying ... and pilot your ship also - instead of orbiting 24/7. It helps to hit stuff, trust me.
But you can also just move fast as hell to catch something you want to catch or disengage if you have to. You are really thinking it's nothing ? Cmon.

Nah 2 more lows are good stuff - you can armor tank it now. But sure you are not forced to do so. 6 mids are still 6 mids - that is a lot on cruiser. If people shield tank cruisers with 3 or 4 mids - i'm sure you can still shield tank ship with 6 mids.

Look at lows as place where you can get nanos, heat sinks, tracking enhancers (for your problem to hit the stuff - it also does work better on phantasm due to hull tracking bonus).

Phantasm is strong, period - about the fking time ;).

Perhaps try reading what I wrote next time. I didn't say it wasn't strong, I just said the concept is broken. It is a mishmash of everything, shield, speed, armour, lasers. I would prefer a much more elegant concept, rather than the hatchet job proposed.

Also, the Phantasm is obviously going to get nerfed on one of the upcoming balance rounds, I am pretty sure. And then we will just be left with a terrible concept.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2014-04-07 17:53:52 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:

Serpentis ships Remote doomsdays on bubble immune titans excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.



They excelled in all areas mate, way to make an extremely bad counter argument.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#136 - 2014-04-07 17:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Grath Telkin wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

Serpentis ships Remote doomsdays on bubble immune titans excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.



They excelled in all areas mate, way to make an extremely bad counter argument.


Not in highsec, lowsec or wspace

Edit: Actually wspace didnt exist back then. And they werent good at say, killing other titans.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#137 - 2014-04-07 17:56:20 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.


Awesome changes Rise


so its ovepoweredness is determined by how many people use it?


In EVE, yes, when its broken, everybody uses it, if everybody isn't using it, its probably not really broken and just strong in a certain niche of the game, that niche might happen to be where you are, but I'm sorry, EVE needs more ships that are strong in a certain area and weak in others, its called uniqueness and it makes the game better than everything being some generic hodgepodge of our standard stats.

Serpentis ships excel in certain areas, and only in those areas, in everything else you can do they're mediocre at best, which is good game balance.


they excel in all situations where they don't get rekt, and making all smaller ships irrelevant isn't good game balance
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#138 - 2014-04-07 17:56:34 UTC
Why is the missile bonus on the Gila damage-type-specific? One of the main advantages of missiles is the ability to switch damage types, and yet you cripple that with hull bonuses only to some types.

As a Rattlesnake pilot, I'm really worried what you're going to do to it. Losing light drone bonuses = frigates become much harder to deal with. Bonuses only to certain missile types = some missions are harder than others.

The Guristas line are the only shield tanked drone boats...why are you doing this experimental "specific drones only" nerfing to them, when there are several armor drone boats to do it to that still leave people with some choices?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2014-04-07 17:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
TrouserDeagle wrote:


they excel in all situations where they don't get rekt, and making all smaller ships irrelevant isn't good game balance


Damn shame they can't be wiped off the map by a keres, griffon, maulus or kitsune, damn those smaller ship. oh and a sentinel can probably have something to say about those short stubby webs.

Damn all those irrelevant smaller ships

EDIT: Calling something uncounterable because its counter isn't in your standard ship compliment seems silly, adapt your ship types if you're seeing a lot of Vigilants to include the things that easily counter them.

The list is pretty long of ships that fit the bill, at a fraction of its cost.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#140 - 2014-04-07 17:59:29 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
I am not a fan of the Gila change. I mean Medium drones would really need an AMAZING balance to even begin to make up for what it is currently. At the moment the GIla is the mini-Rattlesnake. Solid tank, great drones, highly versatile.

I don't see this change being the same.

Bandwidth for only 4 unbonused light drones means dealing with Frigs will be painful, even more so as a DRONE BOAT.. And I don't like droneboats being FORCED to use a specific type of drone regardless of situation.

Here's my idea, since clearly you don't want to have it fielding Sentries/Heavies as effectively.

Change the bonus from MEDIUM drones, to ALL drones. It'll still be only able to field 2 Mediums, or 4 Lights. But at least the lights will be bonused, and able to remain effective against frigs.

The other things to remember about these drone changes. CCP what you are doing is Locking these ships into a PVE role forever, as it denies them the ability to use their drones for EWAR.. Being able to field 5 light ECM drones, or any other drones should CCP get around to making them, you know, useful, is a big deal. It gives you the chance to get out of trouble, or to hold a target at bay.
Now I know the Gila is a PVE Queen now as it is, but it will only be moso now, after this. Which is kind of a shame given that it's a PIRATE hull.

Maybe a hull bonus to the effectiveness of ECM/Neut/Web/etc drones too ? Might open up a lot of new doors for it outside of a just a mission queen.


weird post... 2 uber hammerheads alongside HAMS or RLML's will tear a frig apart no problem especially combined with either an omni tracking computer or with a omni tracking enhancer or a web. . plus many spares..

PVE queen only what??? A gila is getting buffed for pvp more than pve...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using