Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So very late, but I just realized they're all getting cargohold buffs according to the posted numbers, but there's no "(+XX)" indication of that being so. Can a dev please confirm the cargoholds are being buffed? Would be very nice for some of my intended uses!


e: Nevermind, confirmation posted all the way on page 43. Works for me.

i see the Phantasm has been left with its poor agility for release :( ... how can you expect them too take full advantage of using the AB bonus??

[quote=CCP Rise]I'm back!

Getting to finally show you guys these is very exciting! I hope you understand the delay. The drone changes outlined in this Dev Blog had a big enough impact on the balance for pirate cruisers and battleships that we really wanted to wait on posting these. Thankfully, that's happened and we can get on with it!

So, there's a lot of changes here but the precedents set in the frigate pass should be mirrored fairly well. Here's some high level explanation on each of the Cruisers:

Phantasm:

Ashimmu:

Gila:

Vigilant:

Cynabal:


A lot of these are not shown on the Eve homepage ship viewer. Are they new?
I thought ships were only being modified somewhat.

Your drones last a lot longer, meaning your on field DPS is better for longer engagements. Come at me with a Gila on Tranq and I blap your drones you do **** all for DPS. So you lose 100 top end damage (using Gekkos is hardly a benchmark stat to go by either). and you effectively gain 2 little cruiser sized BFFs that take much more time to put down. Your effective damage at the end of the day is higher.

Unless of course you only fight people who don't shoot drones from a drone boat.

yeah, it's a nerf

stuff that's changing, that most people seem to have overlooked because they've been blinded by a 500% bonus to 1 subset of an entire weapon system

Maximum Drone Control Range (Nerfed)
Maximum Missile Range (Nerfed)
Missile DPS (Buffed)
Drone DPS (Nerfed)
Light Drone (any type) x5 (Nerfed)
Medium Drone (any type) x5 (Nerfed)
Heavy Drone (any type) x5 (Nerfed)
Sentry Drones x5 (Nerfed)

eventually people are going to work out that the gila got butt-f**ked, but by then it will be too late
it will be the new least used pirate faction cruiser

Please consider to increase new Gila drone bandwith from 20 to 25, to allow use of full set of light drones.

Your math is slightly incorrect.

With 2 DDAs and Gal Spec IV, two Hammerheads will do 91.8 dps before ship bonuses. After the Gila Bonus is applied that comes out to 550 dps.

4 RLML with a 50% bonus is 6 effective launchers. With full skills and no BCUs it is 178dps cold (Spec IV).

So the new Gila will total at 708 dps. However, this is 708 dps of extremely strong damage application. Geckos are great, but do not apply nearly close to their full damage unless the target is either a BC+ or immobile. They are also losing 25% of their damage come patch day so I don't understand why everyone continues to use them as a baseline. The RLML will do nearly full damage to everything and the Hammerheads will track better while moving 80% faster than their heavy counterparts. So in actuality what does the Gila lose?

It loses range from the use of sentries and a small hit to damage type selection (forced kinetic therm missiles). It also loses potential paper damage against larger/locked down targets. Post-Kronos in normal situations it will hit harder, with more consistency, and have a wider selection of targets because of this. A Gila with RLML and Valks with at least one drone tracking mod will make every frigate in a 50km radius run for the high hills. There is no reason to worry about being able to use a full flight of lights beyond missing that 5th EC-300 drone which I will admit can be important in many "oh ****" situations.

Have you actually flown the Gila on the test server?

It is a monster and its combat capabilities far surpass that of its old iteration. Just because the numbers go down doesn't mean the dps isn't going up. The new Gila trades range and damage against larger targets for a more powerful tool-set when fighting at or below its weightclass. Just because it can't use 5 sentries doesn't mean it's a worthless drone boat. The mindset that people rave and fight over the use of five drones, even when it would hinder the ship to balance for it, is inane and needs to die out.

The least used cruisers will likely continue to be the Phantasm and Ashimmu. The former due to its past stigma of being terribad and the latter because, while a much stronger ship now, will have a very limited number of situations where it is useful and cost justified.

Dat misquote!

Anyways, the weapon system tracking pattern:
BEST - Blasters > Autocannons > Pulse > Beam > Railgun > Artillery - WORST
NOTE: Medium ranged weapon rebalance BROKE THIS PATTERN!
BEST - Beam > Artillery >= Railgun - WORST for cruiser sized weaponry. Artillery tracks minutely better than Railguns at the largest size, so they are essentially the same.
Keep in mind that this pattern doesn't take into account the effects of ammo types (namely projectile tracking ammo)

Railguns have the greatest damage at range of the medium weapons in the game, and usually tracking is not too bad of an issue because of that.

"Hybrid" weapons are called that for a reason - they split their ranges between both optimal and falloff, so measuring them solely by their optimal range is not really fair (unless you're flying an Eagle, Naga, etc), and Null loaded blasters can reach a healthy distance. In fact, it's possible to hit to something like 21km end of falloff with Null loaded Deimos Blasters.

Other fun info-
People tend to think of artillery as better for optimal range bonuses and AC as better with falloff range bonuses. I won't dispute the fact that FALLOFF benefits Autocannons, but Projectile weaponry has innately high falloff, even on their Artillery!

As an example, the Vagabond can get 39km of Falloff with 720mm Arty with all ammo types and a single Tracking Enhancer, where an Autocannon would get only 32km assuming it loaded barrage.

Projectiles suit a good number of situations quite well, and what helps them be more than just "middle of the road" is damage selection and being independent of capacitor. Their on paper DPS is worse than any of the other options, and is applied worse than Blasters but at a very slightly greater range, or tracks better than pulse but at significantly worse range.

Now that you're at the end of my post, keep in mind that I didn't really say much besides numbers disguised as words, and I shouldn't be taken as a serious contender in any argument about the strength of medium projectiles.

So let me get this straight

pre change - Effective against small, medium & large Targets
pre change - high flexibility & utility options

post change - highly effective vs small ships, standard efficiency vs medium ships
post change - niche role with limited utility and no flexibility

and you still see this as a good thing ??

btw marks the change in the gila that I am the least happy with .. the change in overall dps pattern/application is a secondary concern. this is the area where the gila receives the biggest nerf

Actually i see a huge problem here: Basic drone mechanics. It is true that against a web/scrammed target your damage application is pretty neat, as long as your drones can establish a tight orbit. Anything moving at 1,5+ k/s though can easily "kite" your med drones (yes even Valkyries, it gets painfully obvious with hammerheads though) due to the fact that they shut off their MWD once they get in range. Your damage application on an unwebbed/scrammed target is basically none existent. Drone Navigation Computers are not a solution to this problem.

Considering that the Gila is a kiting ship at heart (even after the buffed fitting stats you have to sacrifice to much to fit a decent tank which would make it a viable brawler. Active tanking is not a real option because of the laughable cap pool) it will be pretty much useless for solo work once Kronos hits Tranquility.

Just for fun i tried a tripple DNC fit on SISI. I wasn´t even able to scratch the shields of a Deimos burning at 1.8 k/s. Damage application was close to zero, no matter which med drones were used.

That being said: Yes, after these changes you will be able to fit decent brawler fits as long as you got logi support and tackle. But in the end this is just another kick in the face for every solo pilot.