Wormholes

Yes, can we get people to these townhall meets who are willing to disagree with the crowd and not just agree to every **** idea shat out on the table

Please don't reduce this change to be something as simple as PvE vs PvP mindset,

There is no equality in this change, it allows a headstart for people who roll into others, they have a good X long headstart where (bar a lucky server tick where the scout is seen on dscan) there is no way to even proactively defend onself.

There is no fun in playing an unwinnable game, it is frustrating when you do something wrong yes, but you can take lessons away and learn from it.

Here we have a situation where by chance if RNGesus hates/loves you and you roll into or someone rolls into you, stuff will die.

Nothing to learn, nothing to improve,

Wheres the attraction in that? I enjoy the hunt, and agree currently things aren't in a perfect state but are we really going to go down the track where kills come from bad/good luck?

Overall I think the idea is also crap.

To recap as others have pointed out.

1. A PVP adverse group can easily roll their connection before you have a chance to scan them down.
2 You might as well remove grav sites as nobody in their right mind would ever mine again. Now I'm not a fan of Mining, but I respect those who do (and do enjoy occasionally running into them).

Now IMO a relatively easy comprimise is as follows. If I understand correctly the overlay scanner already only scans every 60 seconds? So at most there is a 1 minute delay. So just up the scanning interval. Say 15 minutes. You don't have to try and strip it out just for WH space, but it largely negates its use as a passive intel tool in all space.

And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with.

Instead of instantly being revealed to the entire system at once, what if the data of a new K162 spawning propagated at some speed, say, 0.1 AU/s?

You could probe it down if your probe was lucky enough to be close to the spawn site, but one alt doing a system-encompassing scan would likely not. That leaves the counterplay of having scouts for advance warning, but doesn't make it ridiculously easy to pull off.

I know it's different from any other system in EVE, but now I kind of want Dscan to propagate at something like 1 AU as well...

The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh.
You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something..

No it is bad.

There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income.

If I get jumped in a Sanctum, I at least got bounties paid for all of my activity up until that point. (whatever the % is based on an ESS etc).

In WH space I make 0 isk running WH sites. (risk involved).
In fact I make 0 isk collecting loot and salvaging (risk involved).

In fact in order to make ANY isk I have to:

1. Run a site
2. Loot salvage a site
3. Safely store the loot (there is a risk however small of getting evicted)
4. Transport the loot through WH space
5. transport the loot thru k-space to a station for sale.

each step of the way has enough risk just to make the isk.

So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no.

First of i like the idea, i think it is a good one that is a realistic and achievable way of balancing the filed. PVE in WH's as it stands is practically risk free if you have any sense what so ever. What staggers me is the ignorance of the current occupants in WH space as to the basic mechanics of the space there living in.

I'm torn between pointing out the glaringly obvious to all of the care bares and my desire to keep you ignorant so i can kill you more easily.

The people on the K162 side already have the advantage when it comes to detecting new signatures being that it shows up for them the second warp is initiated to the hole on the other side. So you have the time it takes possible aggressors to warp to a WH then book mark it, boat the 10-5k you land from the hole jump then finish session change, d-scan to see any potential gank-e's, then further D-Scan them to a specific 100% site or drop probes and find you.

Even the most competent on PVP groups rolling with aggressive intent, this process takes 1 maybe 2 minutes. Not taking into account more PVP like to have eyes on the PVE's before dropping the fleet on them another minute and that's assuming your at the warping if not you have to BM a wreck and wait for it to show up in shared book marks something that in on itself can take an age.

So in order for me to catch a capital in a site it has to be a minimum of 1 minute into its siege/triage timer, and that's with me doing everything perfectly.

So if you still haven't spotted on your probes the new sigg in your system then to be totally honest with you, your incompetent and have no business living in Bob's space.

I have lived in WH space since its introduction, i have spent the last 2 years in Hard Knocks running capital escalations 3 or 4 times a week. And we have never lost a PVE fleet, in fact as it stands the only conceivable way i can imagine loosing one is to be Blood Union'ed.

So yes please, I personally fully endorse encourage this idea, the best iteration suggestion so far is that the K162's only showing once you have jumped. Because the current state of PVE affairs in WH space is untenable.

I doubt if any of the complicated mechanisms a lot of players outlined above have a hope of ever being implemented. It'll turn out that a wormhole is actually a special case of some other object, doesn't have any of the properties needed to implement the necessary statistics, and adding in all the dependencies would be half a POS-rewrite worth of code.

the moment the fleet jumped trough wh its already too late for defender

Right, lots of thoughts in this thread already. One of my favorites:

[quote[And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.[/quote]

I absolutely think that the new sigs should not show up on the overlay, and I would be fine with a 30 - 45 second delay before the K162 is probable - time for the scout who scanned down the named side to warp to it, jump through, and hold their cloak. Any longer than that (the aforementioned 5 mins +/- 2 that someone brought up, or the 15 min someone said, or the 20 minutes it'd take for the sig to propagate at .1 AU/s across a 120 AU system) and things tilt far too far in favor of the people who opened the hole.

This will affect more than just the 'targeted' cap escalation fleets - especially if the delay is higher (!) for a bigger threat, like a larger hole.