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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#641 - 2014-03-27 00:15:32 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain?
This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone!
PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf.
The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year.
The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.

I DO want more people in w-space.
But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk.
T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.

So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.

Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.

What is this I don't even know.....

We need more people in WH's! And the best way to that is to heavily nerf the ability to rat without sudden death!

Too much oversupply! Not enough people! Too easy to rat! Kill ratting so that more people come! (huh?)

Too much oversupply means that I don't make enough money in my c6! Nerf everyone else ability to rat so mine goes up (seriously man?)! But not without driving them away from WHs mind you. Cause we need more population, but only if they don't actually PvE and contribute to the oversupply!

*clutches head and goes to get an asprin.
Lucius Saturninus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#642 - 2014-03-27 01:28:52 UTC
If your going to do this you may as well take away local chat in Null Space to while your at it.
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#643 - 2014-03-27 03:49:55 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
eGO Wallrat wrote:
So I'm new to the forums but not to EVE and for the last several years I've been living in W-Space. I've learned to be paranoid. I've done some hunting myself and I've been hunted. As I'm reading this it would be a major change to the current WH dynamic IMO. Take the auto scanner away - but don't take away my ability to be vigilant.

BayneNothos wrote:
[quote=Erasmus Phoenix]There is balance to be found and that balance is in removing the defenders massive advantage in having the K162 appear straight away in the scan window. The attacker gets NO information immediately, why should the defender.


The attackers can get information right away with the overlay. Ships on scan and one anom? I know where I'm heading.
If I had to scan down the anom then the ratters / miners might see my probes before I get there - if they're vigilant.

By masking sigs it simply handicaps one side of equation.

I'm all for taking away the auto overlay and make us rely on our own actions to see what's out there. But it doesn't make sense for me to probe if I can't actually see what's there.


We're talking about different times here.
The defender knows about the incoming K162 at my warp initialisation + however long it takes the discovery scanner to refresh itself/manually be refreshed. This can be as short as a second or as long as however long the auto refresh rate on the discovery scanner window is.
The attacker doesn't get any info from the new wh until he's aligned, warped to it, flown up to it, jumped, loaded the new system and clicked dscan. If it's a short warp, he's in a fast boat and he lands on top of the wh that can be a short time, 10-20 seconds. If the WH is the other end of the system, if he's in a fat scan boat like an Armour T3, if the cosmic anomaly is far off the WH entity itself it can be double or even longer than that.

This is why I'm in favour of a short delay (or a proper fix via WH spawning on gridland) it equals up both sides.


Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#644 - 2014-03-27 04:17:01 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:
Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.


If I'm looking, here's what I see in the above scenario: first, I see a new signature. Then, I scan down the new signature. It has a signal strength of 0.4% on the long range scan. I keep watching the signatures. The signature I was watching switches from 0.4% to 0.8% on the long range scan: this means I already know that someone is warping to the other end of this wormhole because the wormhole that was there is now replaced with a K162.

So I know that someone is coming before they even land on their side of the wormhole.

If CCP wants to provide some kind of "warning", I would suggest that the existing wormhole should simply get "bigger" as it becomes more unstable. Rather than replacing that A641 with a K162, just make the A641's signature strength inversely proportional to its stability (or directly proportional to the mass that has transited relative to the mass limit of the hole).

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#645 - 2014-03-27 05:19:25 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain?
This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone!
If down the chain you are scanning a wormhole with no active residents then by scanning you spawn the static of this hole.
But guess what before you even land at that hole the residents in there have already fled to their pos.
So scanning the static also delivers less targets then before.
Kills are down for all pvp alliances, by a big factor.
PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf.
The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year.
The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.

I DO want more people in w-space.
But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk.
T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.

So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.

Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.

Or bring in a delay to fill in the probe scanner , unless you are activly probing with probes.
We need the probing for the new players.
Probing in w-space is life, you provide yourself and yours with info, security, isk and targets by probing.
Not to probe in w-space is certain death.
That way the defenders are rewarded by scanning and the attackers at least have a chance to get a target.
Scanning is searching for the will of BOB.




  • You are not getting to the heart of the problem. The heart of the problem is not carefree PvE. The heart of it is the fact that the ENTIRE w-space economy outside of PI is tied to the fate of FOUR ships. FOUR. And CCP has already hinted at nerfing this class of four ships, and let me tell you that has impacted demand for w-space loot big time. My wallet hurts everyday not because I have an easy time ratting (I don't), but because T3 cruisers are in a state of complete limbo and have been for an extended period because there is not any clarity yet from CCP as to what is going to happen to them. This is a problem.

  • Nowadays there is "overproduction" of w-space loot while others have complained at the same time that there is a lack of population in w-space. So yeah, this is a demand issue, not a supply one. There's no demand. That needs to be fixed. I think you sort of understand that, but are getting hung up on the K162 timer thingy and believe this will raise sleeper loot prices. Well yes it will, but for all the wrong reasons. This would be a step towards fixing the supply/demand imbalance by cutting supply to be in line with the current low demand. That's the wrong direction to go in if you ask me. It will lead to further depopulation. Net net, you could end up with even fewer kills because there's simply nobody living in w-space anymore.

  • I understand that probing is sort of part of the culture of w-space, so I'm ok with the amount of probing there is now, but there doesn't need to be anymore probing than there is today without there being wallet incentives to do it. Especially with the w-space economy situation being the way it is.

    • tl;dr demand demand demand, fix demand. The K162 timer will cut suppy, but we have a demand problem in w-space. Fix THAT first.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#646 - 2014-03-27 05:19:27 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.


Sigh, no one in WH Space just chills out and continues on when they see a new sig, regardless of what it is, they go straight back to POS and you know it.

The point of me spelling out all the little bits of time that add up was to show that a short delay would be mostly eaten up by mundane things, thus it's not giving an enormous advantage to the attacker at all but just reducing the natural defensive advantages that the Discovery Scanner era has to a more equitable gap.

EVE is a much slower game than people think it is. I'm an AUTZ player so I've done plenty of rush back to the WH before DT runs. A HS system crossing is about a minute in a cruiser, session change to session change. The thing is you tend to not notice this kind of stuff unless you're clock watching. Now a WH system isn't the same, jumps tend to be shorter (HS Gates are generally at the outer edges of a system, WH's tend to be closer to the sun) but again the actual time wasn't the point.

Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.

Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#647 - 2014-03-27 05:52:03 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:


Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.

Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.




  • Its probably better to implement a change where the K162 doesn't appear until an actual ship has passed through it (now it appears precisely when a ship warps to it, which is too soon) - that much can probably be agreed upon.

  • My concern is that if there is going to be a timer delay, it is too easy to screw it up and unbalance the game - specifically if the timer is too long then PvE-centric pilots will just leave w-space because of the current low value of sleeper loot (esp. in C1/C2/C3) not being worth the risk. So I would rather there be no timer than a screwed up timer.

  • If there's going to be a timer or removal of the 0% sigs from the Discover Scanner, it should be offset by some changes to improve demand for w-space loot. We need more pilots in w-space, not less. So we need more demand to offset the increased risk.

GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#648 - 2014-03-27 06:00:45 UTC
mashing refresh on both dscan and cosmic sigs dosn't sound like great game play tbh

maybe make the cosmic scanner auto update timer 1-2 mins or so. and from there the overlay will update.
this should be easy uncomplicated and not introduce bugs..

As it is you should never stop checking dscan.

As a side issue can you give us some data on how often d-scan is pushed in wh space and what the size of the server replies is? just wondering how much server resources & bandwidth dscanning currently takes up. and if theres some kind of optimization that can take place.

in Nova if you where stupid and dscaned with no filters your dscan window would have a fit.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#649 - 2014-03-27 06:12:14 UTC
Anhenka wrote:

What is this I don't even know.....

We need more people in WH's! And the best way to that is to heavily nerf the ability to rat without sudden death!

Too much oversupply! Not enough people! Too easy to rat! Kill ratting so that more people come! (huh?)

Too much oversupply means that I don't make enough money in my c6! Nerf everyone else ability to rat so mine goes up (seriously man?)! But not without driving them away from WHs mind you. Cause we need more population, but only if they don't actually PvE and contribute to the oversupply!

*clutches head and goes to get an asprin.

I don'r need to rat, but the c1-c4 people seem to complain about not enough income... .
Wich only is a problem since the new scanning system.
So ore sites not needed to scan might also be one of the problem.

Besides, everyone seems to have forgoten what it was before the overview scanner changes where you did need to scan.
Now you can just just pos up immediatly.
People still ratted before so HTFU.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Strom Crendraven
The H8teful Eight
#650 - 2014-03-27 06:15:36 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Wrong..you know the instant you warp that you are warping to a WH because you already scanned it down, the defender only knows that he has a new unidentified sig and still has to react and scan it down by which time you have already arrived at the WH and jumped through unless he is a world class scanner. That already puts the advantage squarely on the aggressors side and this is under the current mechanic. Stop trying to spell out every task to make it look like you have to go through all these tedious time consuming steps to roll into someone, your not fooling anybody with half a brain here. By the time the defender even knows you've opened up a WH to him your already in if you have any skill whatsoever.


Sigh, no one in WH Space just chills out and continues on when they see a new sig, regardless of what it is, they go straight back to POS and you know it.

The point of me spelling out all the little bits of time that add up was to show that a short delay would be mostly eaten up by mundane things, thus it's not giving an enormous advantage to the attacker at all but just reducing the natural defensive advantages that the Discovery Scanner era has to a more equitable gap.

EVE is a much slower game than people think it is. I'm an AUTZ player so I've done plenty of rush back to the WH before DT runs. A HS system crossing is about a minute in a cruiser, session change to session change. The thing is you tend to not notice this kind of stuff unless you're clock watching. Now a WH system isn't the same, jumps tend to be shorter (HS Gates are generally at the outer edges of a system, WH's tend to be closer to the sun) but again the actual time wasn't the point.

Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.

Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.


Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#651 - 2014-03-27 06:18:19 UTC
GizzyBoy wrote:
mashing refresh on both dscan and cosmic sigs dosn't sound like great game play tbh

maybe make the cosmic scanner auto update timer 1-2 mins or so. and from there the overlay will update.
this should be easy uncomplicated and not introduce bugs..

As it is you should never stop checking dscan.

As a side issue can you give us some data on how often d-scan is pushed in wh space and what the size of the server replies is? just wondering how much server resources & bandwidth dscanning currently takes up. and if theres some kind of optimization that can take place.

in Nova if you where stupid and dscaned with no filters your dscan window would have a fit.

I am not fond of timers also but activly scanning should and used to have its rewards.
Doing that before oddesy rewarded you with escaping pvp'ers.
Today there is no need for it while doing pve.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#652 - 2014-03-27 06:35:07 UTC
Maduin Shi wrote:
Strom Crendraven wrote:


Things take time, you can't avoid that. The delay is to offset that time.

Or CCP could fix it properly and make 0% signatures not display in the Discovery Scanner Window.




  • Its probably better to implement a change where the K162 doesn't appear until an actual ship has passed through it (now it appears precisely when a ship warps to it, which is too soon) - that much can probably be agreed upon.

  • My concern is that if there is going to be a timer delay, it is too easy to screw it up and unbalance the game - specifically if the timer is too long then PvE-centric pilots will just leave w-space because of the current low value of sleeper loot (esp. in C1/C2/C3) not being worth the risk. So I would rather there be no timer than a screwed up timer.

  • If there's going to be a timer or removal of the 0% sigs from the Discover Scanner, it should be offset by some changes to improve demand for w-space loot. We need more pilots in w-space, not less. So we need more demand to offset the increased risk.



Yes a timer could be screwed up, it's why I'd rather it was fixed properly. Though tbh I haven't seen Fozzie screw anything up yet (I'm sure someone will correct me there :P ) so I"m confident that if a timer is added due to a proper fix being unavailable for whatever reason, it'll be short and reasonable for the job.

If you're worried about isk, worry about the upcoming T3 rebalance, that has more potential to do damage to W-Space than a 12 hour timer ever will.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#653 - 2014-03-27 06:37:07 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.

Wormholes used to be dangerous now they aren't any more.
You seem to have forgotten how it was before the easy way of living in w-space.
And back then there were still pve'ers in w-space.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Akseli Jari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#654 - 2014-03-27 06:47:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community.
Thanks!
-Fozzie


Could you perhaps elaborate on some of the other concepts you've been working on?
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#655 - 2014-03-27 06:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: BayneNothos
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Oh I see, we should cripple the carebears because they might run? How about a system wide warp scram effect every time a K162 is opened into a WH, but only for the inhabitants? For the record I agree with doing away with the discovery scanner because it is crap, but delaying sig appearance to both the scanner and probes is just a plain stupid way to give free ganks to lazy WH'ers who feel entitled to a killmail because they rolled into another WH. Honestly this whole idea reeks of fools like Two-Step and Chitsa with their "lets make changes to WH's that benifit me and my alliance" mentality. "Wormholes are supposed to be dangerous" is a lame ass excuse to make a change that would drive alot of small time people out of wormholes because they got tired of getting ganked every damn day and no matter what they couldn't do anything about it. And no i'm not a carebear but i believe their existence is crucial in WH space because the more people the more targets and being a non-lazy hunter I think there should be effort involved in getting kills that involves a little more that rage rolling a hole all day.


If you read around the forums a bit you'll see I'm a big fan of PvE guys. I'm the one saying PvP groups should be adopting them rather than trolling and evicting them. The WH ecosystem is very important to me. The variation in what you find static to static is what I love about it. However part of that ecosystem is predators, whether you like it or not. PvE guys existed before the Discovery Scanner and thrived just as much as they do now. The only difference is that now they don't have to actively protect themselves, the Discovery Scanner will tell them when they have to run the split second I start to warp to the WH. And this is why a SHORT delay is being suggested by some people. Even if it is the long terrible way to fixing the Discovery Scanner
Nox52
Pterygopalatine
#656 - 2014-03-27 09:24:31 UTC
Directed to Fozzie.

Assuming the proposed unscannable k162 delay changes go ahead for all k162s, what is going to happen to k space exits? The changes would be near worthless for k space as local would be an instant and more powerful intel method than the scanner overlay.

Are you going to add a similar delay timer to local for people jumping in kspace to make the changes worth it?


(I'm curious if there was any dev though put into the issue and if so what was it.)
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#657 - 2014-03-27 10:33:55 UTC
Strom Crendraven wrote:

Yes a timer could be screwed up, it's why I'd rather it was fixed properly. Though tbh I haven't seen Fozzie screw anything up yet (I'm sure someone will correct me there :P ) so I"m confident that if a timer is added due to a proper fix being unavailable for whatever reason, it'll be short and reasonable for the job.

If you're worried about isk, worry about the upcoming T3 rebalance, that has more potential to do damage to W-Space than a 12 hour timer ever will.


I already mentioned about the T3 reblance/nerf in my earlier posts. The uncertainty over the fate of T3 cruisers is already damaging and has damaged w-space. Markets are always forward-looking, and that includes the Eve market. T3 hull/sub prices already reflect significant uncertainty over the possibility of the nerf hammer dropping. Pull up a recent chart of Tengu hulls in Jita and you'll see what I'm talking about. You don't see those kind of inexorable multi-year declines if there isn't a demand problem.

I'm not sure who would program a timer change, but as the old saying goes - past performance is no guarantee of future results.
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#658 - 2014-03-27 10:41:41 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:

Wormholes used to be dangerous now they aren't any more.
You seem to have forgotten how it was before the easy way of living in w-space.
And back then there were still pve'ers in w-space.


They aren't anymore because you are in a big ass entity. They see you and they run since your corp has the power to wipe the floor with most of them. It's the nature of the beast.
Now, are you one of those hunters that like his prey encircled and brought in the rifle's sights or are you the type that likes to hunt in the wild and knows that he'll not always get the kill?
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#659 - 2014-03-27 11:19:24 UTC
GizzyBoy wrote:

I am not fond of timers also but activly scanning should and used to have its rewards.
Doing that before oddesy rewarded you with escaping pvp'ers.
Today there is no need for it while doing pve.


The lack of a negative outcome is not a positive outcome.

In other words, it is not "rewarding" to not have something bad happen to me - and it is not "rewarding" to have to engage in a boring/undesirable activity in order to avoid an even more negative outcome.

Logical fallacies.

Staying on topic - I have advocated and continue to advocate that K162 behaviour should be tilted a bit more in favor of the hunters but it should be done without making w-space more inconvenient.

Completely removing the Discovery Scanner for 0% sigs would force PvE pilots to train a scanner alt on another account like it was in the old days and this is rather inconvenient because the role is boring and nobody enjoys it. It would be a significant gameplay nerf.

The opposition would argue that if there is more inconvenience then loot prices will increase. This is true, but creating a price rally by making the game less enjoyable to play is not a good long-term direction to go. More depopulation (and subscription losses) would result.

At the same time putting a delay on the K162 spawn on the Discovery Scanner could easily tip the balance too far in favor of the hunters. Hunters should feel a sense of accomplishment for every kill they get, but if they get like five minutes to find a barge or a cheap PvE boat and there's no warning (cloaked Proteus FTW) - well then its just cheap kills for the lolz and PvE pilots leave w-space.

At least the change should start with the K162 popping on the Discovery Scanner when a ship has gone through it, and no later than when a ship has decloaked after passing through it. That would be more balanced and it would be similar (in terms of timing) to the old days when a scanner alt would pick up the K162 via probes but without the inconvenience of yet more probing (ugh).

But this recommendation is excluding any further changes to improve demand for sleeper loot. If there's some nice improvements to w-space site values on the demand side, then I would not mind further changes to benefit the hunters. Just keep the number of carrots equal to the number of sticks for both camps.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#660 - 2014-03-27 12:44:10 UTC
Pointing fingers at no one in particular. This thread has turned into a giant DUMB MAGNET. Where is the ninny that randomly locks threads for random forum rules reasons?? This has to be breaking some obscure rule. Please lock it.

There is nothing new to discuss here.