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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Moondrop Picard
Ave Tenebrae
#1641 - 2014-03-29 17:05:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm not sure I like changing all instances of Refining to Reprocessing.

It doesn't make sense to reprocess un-processed ore and ice.


Yeah, I'd say that anything having to do with raw materials should be Refining, and anything having to do with Scrapmetal Processing should be Reprocessing.

Other than that nit (and my reflexive aversion to insta-refining)? These look like an excellent set of changes.


Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.

The point of merging those two terms however is to make it clear it is the same process and station facility / service ( you can't reprocess both ores and materials at the same time at the moment, and both "reprocess" and "refining" are appearing under the Star Map under the "service" tab).

Although "refining" scrap metal isn't entirely accurate, "reprocessing" rock you chipped off an asteroid is completely illogical. If one of those words must be used, "refining" would make more sense.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#1642 - 2014-03-29 17:07:08 UTC
Kara Vix wrote:
Can someone better at math than I break down some numbers for me. Currently what is the cost for running a small pos in hi sec (fuel per month) and what would be the gain on refining vs station refining after the update with a character with perfect refining skills. I am not being lazy on running numbers, I just have a mental block when doing math Roll


I haven't done the maths either but if you are thinking of running a small POS just for compression then I think you may make a loss with the POS fuel costs. It does sound like if you have max skills and the 4% hardwiring you won't be far off where we are now on refining.

It is still the case though that the current proposal gives mission runners who do spreadsheets and collect all the loot will get a kick in the pants.

Also we will have to wait and see if the current proposals go through, and what over changes get announced, will do to the status quo. Currently the majority are saying compression will be the favoured route of transporting minerals from high to low & null sec. But it may be that mining in 'deep blue' in nullsec, given the 20% increase in refinery yield, will be the favoured option.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#1643 - 2014-03-29 17:09:10 UTC
Moondrop Picard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm not sure I like changing all instances of Refining to Reprocessing.

It doesn't make sense to reprocess un-processed ore and ice.


Yeah, I'd say that anything having to do with raw materials should be Refining, and anything having to do with Scrapmetal Processing should be Reprocessing.

Other than that nit (and my reflexive aversion to insta-refining)? These look like an excellent set of changes.


Yes, that is one discussion we internally had as well. We tried to find a term that would encompess both reprocessing and refining, but with no avail.

The point of merging those two terms however is to make it clear it is the same process and station facility / service ( you can't reprocess both ores and materials at the same time at the moment, and both "reprocess" and "refining" are appearing under the Star Map under the "service" tab).

Although "refining" scrap metal isn't entirely accurate, "reprocessing" rock you chipped off an asteroid is completely illogical. If one of those words must be used, "refining" would make more sense.


To my mind both the 'Refining' & 'Reprocessing' terminologies should be kept and used as they are. We went to school and know what these words mean. Did the CCP devs go to school too? Smile

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Inspiration
#1644 - 2014-03-29 19:27:05 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Did the CCP devs go to school too? Smile


I hope not...as true creative thinking is one of the very first skills you loose there!

I am serious!

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1645 - 2014-03-29 19:30:31 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Kara Vix wrote:
Can someone better at math than I break down some numbers for me. Currently what is the cost for running a small pos in hi sec (fuel per month) and what would be the gain on refining vs station refining after the update with a character with perfect refining skills. I am not being lazy on running numbers, I just have a mental block when doing math Roll


I haven't done the maths either but if you are thinking of running a small POS just for compression then I think you may make a loss with the POS fuel costs. It does sound like if you have max skills and the 4% hardwiring you won't be far off where we are now on refining.

It is still the case though that the current proposal gives mission runners who do spreadsheets and collect all the loot will get a kick in the pants.

Also we will have to wait and see if the current proposals go through, and what over changes get announced, will do to the status quo. Currently the majority are saying compression will be the favoured route of transporting minerals from high to low & null sec. But it may be that mining in 'deep blue' in nullsec, given the 20% increase in refinery yield, will be the favoured option.



the difference btw the max refine at a station and in a POS is 2.9%
and u r not limited to ur own minerals u can buy ore off the market and refine it and then sell it with an already 2.9% advantage on those who are refining at a station...


Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1646 - 2014-03-29 20:59:53 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Kara Vix wrote:
Can someone better at math than I break down some numbers for me. Currently what is the cost for running a small pos in hi sec (fuel per month) and what would be the gain on refining vs station refining after the update with a character with perfect refining skills. I am not being lazy on running numbers, I just have a mental block when doing math Roll


I haven't done the maths either but if you are thinking of running a small POS just for compression then I think you may make a loss with the POS fuel costs. It does sound like if you have max skills and the 4% hardwiring you won't be far off where we are now on refining.

It is still the case though that the current proposal gives mission runners who do spreadsheets and collect all the loot will get a kick in the pants.

Also we will have to wait and see if the current proposals go through, and what over changes get announced, will do to the status quo. Currently the majority are saying compression will be the favoured route of transporting minerals from high to low & null sec. But it may be that mining in 'deep blue' in nullsec, given the 20% increase in refinery yield, will be the favoured option.



the difference btw the max refine at a station and in a POS is 2.9%
and u r not limited to ur own minerals u can buy ore off the market and refine it and then sell it with an already 2.9% advantage on those who are refining at a station...




The difference is you need absolutely no skills at a pos. None at all.
Luke Icecon
Life. Universe. Everything.
Clockwork Pineapple
#1647 - 2014-03-29 21:43:37 UTC
Everybody is focused on the micro level and are generally pretty happy with most of the changes.

However, there is a big hole here with the changes on the macro level.

That is, that mining is actually getting buffed pretty significantly. Why? Because the amount of minerals coming into the economy from reprocessed mods is about to crater. And, in the beginning, even a bit from miners as well as lots of folks won't have maxed skills/standings/implants. Thus, mineral prices are going to go up.

Now, I don't have a problem with buffing the dismal task that is mining per se but this is a sub-optimal way to go about it, and it's safe to assume that hordes will not flock to mining (although some additional mining is expected).

The fundamental issue is that mineral prices drive everything up and so inflation as a whole will go up (similar to how gas price rises add to inflation in the real world). Combined with how the ice mining changes already pushed fuel block prices up and thus moon products up, everything is getting more expensive.

This would be fine if incomes were going up across the board but they are not, creating a squeeze. Only miners and moon miners are mostly immune, and to a lesser extent manufacturers. Mission runners and explorers will be hit especially hard by the mod reprocessing changes (and they've already been hit by lowered salvage prices due to relic site changes).

And the icing on the cake, as Jester pointed out, is that rising mineral prices will promote a surge in mining bots, countering CCP's attempt to price them out via rising PLEX prices.

Overall, It's hard to predict what the macro level impact will be, but even if it is small, it's going in the wrong direction. On a personal level, I dislike how it hurts PvP because the more expensive ships get, the more risk aversion people have. As if it wasn't hard enough to get good fights in low and nullsec.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1648 - 2014-03-29 22:03:38 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Kara Vix wrote:
Can someone better at math than I break down some numbers for me. Currently what is the cost for running a small pos in hi sec (fuel per month) and what would be the gain on refining vs station refining after the update with a character with perfect refining skills. I am not being lazy on running numbers, I just have a mental block when doing math Roll


I haven't done the maths either but if you are thinking of running a small POS just for compression then I think you may make a loss with the POS fuel costs. It does sound like if you have max skills and the 4% hardwiring you won't be far off where we are now on refining.

It is still the case though that the current proposal gives mission runners who do spreadsheets and collect all the loot will get a kick in the pants.

Also we will have to wait and see if the current proposals go through, and what over changes get announced, will do to the status quo. Currently the majority are saying compression will be the favoured route of transporting minerals from high to low & null sec. But it may be that mining in 'deep blue' in nullsec, given the 20% increase in refinery yield, will be the favoured option.



the difference btw the max refine at a station and in a POS is 2.9%
and u r not limited to ur own minerals u can buy ore off the market and refine it and then sell it with an already 2.9% advantage on those who are refining at a station...




The difference is you need absolutely no skills at a pos. None at all.



a max skill char or a no skill char refine at a POS at an additional 2.9% more than a station max refine....
Nolak Ataru
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1649 - 2014-03-29 23:57:47 UTC
Ashla Boga wrote:
"Keep Calm and Carry On"?

Damn it CCP. You're trying to kill the profit of hundreds of salvagers and hundreds of missioners just revolving around Pro Synergy alone. One corp. You're screwing with things that are just going to backfire and increase botting. Everyone wants more bots, right?

You killed drone poo which was a huge spike through the heart of the salvaging community, and gave us bounties on drones instead, which I agree missioners were in love with (despite salvagers losing a lot of profit). Then you removed Meta 0 modules from rat droppings because there was too many minerals in your eyes. Now this.

"Calm down, Mr Director of Salvage Corp Person, it's just a game." Hell no. I'm fired up and pissed off because you're going to decrease profits of new and veteran players salvaging and their missioner friends by obscene amounts with not even the slightest compensation. Even with Scrapmetal V and a 4% implant the yields are going to be crap. Rig changes have done almost nothing to increase profits from the salvaging profession, and behind every Noctis is a real live player. Not a program.

You say you want to reward players who specialize in a career, and ore miners and ice miners are going to be unaffected by this. But module reprocessors like myself and a dozen other faithful admins of the corp have absolutely NO POSSIBLE WAY to get even remotely close to 100% yield. Even if you added an Advanced Scrapmetal Reprocessing we'd still be far off. That's not helping a specialized player, it's slapping them in the F***ing face. Our admins have trained OVER a month of skills to be the best at what they do for their customers, but not that will all be way more than wasted. Ore miners didn't have to go anywhere near this kind of training to be 100%. Dig a little deeper before you go killing professions off, CCP.


This. Still more proof CCP doesn't play EVE.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1650 - 2014-03-30 00:08:39 UTC
I'd really appreciate some form of "hey there! rest assured that we still actively monitor this thread" response in here - after a bit more than 40 pages and eight days of blue tagged silence.

NPEISDRIP

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1651 - 2014-03-30 02:27:04 UTC
Would it help to know some CSM are still following along?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1652 - 2014-03-30 07:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Mike Azariah wrote:
Would it help to know some CSM are still following along?

m

Not really, this thread has remained pretty civil considering the impact these pandering changes will have on so many.

The real issue here - like a few other recent changes it seems, CCP has already made the decision that is the most suitable for them and a minority group and everyone else in eve has to adapt and put up with it;

For me, this quote pretty much sums up CCP's attitude to what players want when compared to what devs want.
Quote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Obviously the gameplay style associated with Rapid Missile Launchers isn't everyone's cup of tea, but modules don't need to appeal to every player. There are plenty of people for whom the extra damage and precision of rapid launchers is well worth the reload time, for other players there are other launcher options to choose from.


Reworded to suit upcoming changes, I imagine it would read something like;
Obviously these changes won't be everyone's cup of tea. Not every change in the game will suit the majority but there is a minority in Nulsec who will be very happy.
For everyone else, change the way you have been playing the game for years. Train 110+ days to specialize only to be outperformed by a no skills required pos module. Accept yet another cut in mission income.We acknowledge the new mobile tractor units are now pretty much redundant but use them anyway so you can end up with thousands of m3 of useless modules and FOF/Defender missiles (which used to make you a profit but are now little more than "Trash")
For everyone else, eve is a sandbox game and you can play it any way you choose, (until Devs decide to take it away from you)


Question As plenty has never been quantified, my guess is - more than 10 less than 1000. Out of 500k+ subscribers. Question

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Darkblad
Doomheim
#1653 - 2014-03-30 09:31:15 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Would it help to know some CSM are still following along?

m
Myself, i'm pretty sure that CCP is also aware of what's discussed here. But there are several points in the past 40 pages where it'd be nice if CCP would address them. My own assumption is, that there'll be a compilation of all things CCP picked up here and how they got applied to the plan of changes. Soon (no ™). Thanks for your reply, though Bear

NPEISDRIP

MR DEMOS
DKL Fringe Division
3 Jackals
#1654 - 2014-03-30 13:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: MR DEMOS
Honestly i think this is a fricking joke.... CCP is always nerfing **** to compensate for the newer players while leaving the older players out in the dark on alot of things. That lvl 5 skilling nullified by a nerf. This does go against that to some degree but it also nulifies alot of the changes made to ores in null sec. in the end it will cancel eachother out and put **** right back to the way it was.... FAIL CCP .... COME BACK WHEN YOU ARE WORTHY... Ohhh and supers will get alot more expensive.... Ratt loot wont produce as much mins if your a builder... And it dont matter where you are... this is CCPS fix to thier overcompensating for the NULL sec ore changes....

Never give a ****** a Potato gun your just asking for trouble...
Kijyat
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1655 - 2014-03-30 14:44:51 UTC
I am a hi sec miner and mission runner who specialized in the refining mini profession. I maxed all the required skills/skill trees in this profession. This not only gave me max refine/profit but also enabled me to make a profit refining other players ores. Now I am going to take a loss of over 25% for every item refined and lose refining customers because I live in hi sec. Way to go dev team! Whats next, nerfing trading in hi sec, the hauling mini profession or even better, make hi sec manufacturing inferior to null sec manufacturing.



It is senseless that I can never reach 100% max refine/reprocess even with maxed skills/impant regardless of space. The devs should have soley addressed the 100% refine/reprocess without maxed skills. The other points could of been handled at a lower level instead of a game wide nerf add on.



Players/corps that choose to move their operations out of hi sec do so at their own risk and shouldn't be rewarded any bonuses to refining/reprocessing since it is simply a click of a button. Regardless of the gank risk, type of space, or what was used to get items to the reprocessing station, its a click of a button.



I understand CCP created a universe for players to explore, settle, and kill each other in, but to constantly penalize players who chose to make a living in 1 portion of space and constantly over reward players who chose to make a living in another portion of space is ridiculous. I dont think CCP will stop penalizing hi sec players until enough people stop playing the game and they stop making money.

Red Deck
The Tebo Corp
Herd Of Cats
#1656 - 2014-03-30 15:39:42 UTC
Disclaimer: I have read the first 30+ pages of this thread only so far, so my apologies if I'm just repeating something that got posted in the next 50+ pages...

Caldari 5 wrote:
I haven't read the entire thread yet, so I will likely add additional responses later.

Changing the refining in NPC stations to lowest yield = good change
So I read these changes as being best yield to lowest as being:
Minmatar Station > Other Player built Stations > POSs > NPC Stations
The above is good :)

Not fixing the POSs to use player skill to refine is an abomination, this needs to be fixed ASAP.

I disagree with the changes to where you can get perfect refine though.

Perfect refine should be possible with all skills at 5 and the highest implant(may wish to introduce higher implants) in the lowest NPC station. However this should be exactly 100% when the math is worked, so that missing any one of the appropriate skills or implant you will not get perfect refine.
You should also get perfect refine in the best player built station without the implant and all skills at 4. That should provide enough differentiation.

I very much agree.

Giving an advantage to nullsec by easing requirements for perfect refine that otherwise apply to hisec refiners (NPC standings, perfect skills, implant) sounds like just enough. You would be able to achieve "perfect" refine anywhere (hi/low/null), but the higher the sec status, the harder you would have to work for it.

I believe the notion of a maxxed-out character getting better yield in a nullsec refinery than in a hisec refinery is nonsensical. Yes, there probably should be a price for the relative safety of the hisec (see above - NPC standings, better skills & implant needed), but otherwise, why should the output be different? It's not like nullsec lacks benefits balancing the generally greater risks (better loot, better ores, better anoms...). And it's not like slightly better refining yields will encourage more mining in nullsec, it would just encourage hauling compressed ore (rather than refined minerals) from hisec to nullsec, which I hardly find desirable (if for nothing else, then for the sake of immersion).

Note: there still is a requirement that could be made a bit harder on hisec refiners - the NPC standings. Currently, all you need is 6.67 with an NPC corp - this could easily get changed so that "We like you so much that we will refine your ore for free." only happens at 9.0, 9.5 or something like that.

For the sake of simplicity and clarity, I would suggest that "perfect" refine stays at 100% (although you would have to meet different requirements to achieve that in different security zones) - there would be no need to change the ore yields then (other than for the sake of making all batch sizes equal, which is a change I support).


As for the changes affecting scrapmetal processing... I don't think I see the need for a change that heavy. I kinda agree there should be a cost associated with converting finished goods back to minerals, but definitely not 45%... 5%-10% sounds perfectly reasonable. Sure, moving minerals around as 425mm railguns is just plain weird and it would be nice if that got fixed somehow, but certainly not by reducing the scrapmetal processing output from 100% to 55%, which heavily affects salvagers.

How about introducing a new jump freighter with an extremely large mineral bay (akin to Kryos) that would make it unnecessary to convert minerals to 425mm railguns? Or how about, gasp, introducing proper mineral compression (akin to the ore compression we already have)? Those solutions seem much cleaner to me, while not affecting current salvagers.

The proposed "solution" of hauling compressed ore to nullsec refineries is just pure nonsense from the immersion point of view (just like the general notion of nullsec refineries being able to refine better than hisec ones).


And a crazy idea to end my post with (I have no idea what I am talking about here):

How about allowing the Rorqual to function as a mobile ore refinery? Consuming fuel (just like ore compression does), perhaps less than 100% efficient, perhaps needing special mods to process individual ore types, but capable of refining ore on-site... would that be too much to make it attractive?
Inspiration
#1657 - 2014-03-30 15:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
@Red deck

Allowing perfect refine anywhere removes all future wiggle room for improvements. Being able to attain the same for what is now reprocessing re-introduces modules compression, which is undesirable. In a game where choice should make a difference, 100% recyclable good is bad!

Maybe you just missed the buff to ore mineral content.

And installations do not have to be equal, in fact there is no logic in expecting them to be. You can buy a new car in RL and it will likely be better then your old one. You can also buy a different type of car, that is only allowed on racetracks and it will go faster. Old and new can co-exist and have their own niece application. Old being the NPC stations obviously.

You speak of immersion, but what you describe you want is 100% opposite of that.

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1658 - 2014-03-30 16:27:40 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
@Red deck

Allowing perfect refine anywhere removes all future wiggle room for improvements. Being able to attain the same for what is now reprocessing re-introduces modules compression, which is undesirable. In a game where choice should make a difference, 100% recyclable good is bad!

Maybe you just missed the buff to ore mineral content.

And installations do not have to be equal, in fact there is no logic in expecting them to be. You can buy a new car in RL and it will likely be better then your old one. You can also buy a different type of car, that is only allowed on racetracks and it will go faster. Old and new can co-exist and have their own niece application. Old being the NPC stations obviously.

You speak of immersion, but what you describe you want is 100% opposite of that.

Your still at it. Has your opinion on the PoS modules changed with concerns to skill requirements?

What about compression needing skill requirements?
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1659 - 2014-03-30 16:31:42 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Would it help to know some CSM are still following along?

m

If your still following along it would be very nice if the Rorqual got some love as part of the deal with this expansion. They literately ran off with its cookies per say with the coming expansion.
Bhock
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1660 - 2014-03-30 17:07:20 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Would it help to know some CSM are still following along?

m

No module should nullify millions of SP of skills, because "of the old PoS code"... or I need guns that require no gun skills and are better than a fully skilled gunner (or take any other example you can imagine).

If that disregard of the refiners that invested heavily in refining is a stop-gap solution before the new PoS code coming this summer or winter, then it is acceptable... but if CCP kills 5M+ SP from a part of their playerbase for years to come (PoS code has been in the pipes for years, now), then they have to change that NoSkill Reprocessing PoS Module to much lower refining values.

Or refund the SPs spend in those skills (but leave the skills at 0)... I don't care what they decide but many players have invested more SP in those skills than in the old Learning Skills, which got refunded when they became obsolete.

The only refiners winning here are those in null, with a Minmattar Station... and it's not the majority of the players with refining skills.

Other than that, have CCP work on he Capital Industrials and the T2 transports (and a crapload of T2 ships that are waiting for their review)

And have CCP answer on that thread, wih an acceptable answer or timeline.

p.s.: if CCP wants to give that PoS module, they can make it a deployable (it will be offline in most cases, anyway) that will take the skills into account, and they provide the function they want to cater without hurting part of their playerbase.