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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#221 - 2014-03-20 18:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Because you are changing *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. the reprocessing skills and making more then half of them dead weight you should change the training time on them way down because there are no where near as useful as they once were.

It is also wrong the an implant should be required to get 100% refines because the only reason to use implants right now is to get 100% refines in null.
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#222 - 2014-03-20 18:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir HyperChrist
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
1) area-buy ores. The
....
6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns
7) jump to lowsec station, dock and unload
8) Haul the compressed ores to a low-sec pos for refining Extra risk
9) haul the refined minerals back to station 30 freighter hauls in lowsec
10) build capital comps and ships
11) sell them


you make things waaaaaaay to complicated.

1) area buy COMPRESSED ORES. the miners will also learn that compressed ores are much cooler than uncompressed.
2) haul ore to your jumpout
3) jump ores to lowsec (or even better, nullsec)
4) build capital components and ships
5) sell them



you forget my currect lowsec todo-list: have to reprocess at pos: it's 54/50 = 108% better yield
but yes, that's one step I might just skip :)

However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. Most miners don't have a pos, as mining is mostly for newer players, so the compressing will fall onto older,. better trained, better standings, richer corps, like mine. (Please I already have had enough wars, I just wait them out, so don't bother :)
The end result is the same.
Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#223 - 2014-03-20 18:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Weaselior wrote:
One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).

They should just use their *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. new depolyables system for their fitting arrays and all the other hot garbage for these compression arrays if they want people to use them otherwise its just a wasted system.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#224 - 2014-03-20 18:22:09 UTC
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. The end result is the same.

you pay them part of the profit from your better refines, and you both profit

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2014-03-20 18:22:52 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).


what about outsourcing by simply buying compressed ore ?
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2014-03-20 18:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Querns wrote:
This change is highly unlikely to seriously affect the income streams of new players who mine. As written in the devblog, unrefined ore is going to be a LOT more useful to anyone needing minerals than the actual minerals will be, because already-refined minerals will no longer be compressible. New players simply need to sell their ore (or compress it themselves; anchoring 3 is not a particularly long train) to buyers in a trade hub who have the refining skills to get maximum profit from the ore. Heck, I am toying with the idea of bulk purchasing compressed ore in highsec, shipping it to nullsec, refining it at an alliance T3 minmatar outpost, then selling the minerals at a profit. You can be damned sure that I'm going to be willing to purchase the ore from these supposed "new" miners for far more isk than any empire reprocesser is going to be able to stomach.


A POS in empire space is quite out of reach for a new guy. The fuel costs, the necessity to provide a form of security (hire mercs, recruit combat oriented pilots which is an increased risk by itself, or train your combat skills up) against war declarations, necessity of considerable amounts of faction standings to be able to anchor are quite difficult problems for a new guy to tackle down.

A newbie miner already has a great incentive to sell the raw ore to make a profit, as they tend to focus on actual mining and core skills rather than refining skills. Current mechanic already requires you to have good corp/faction standings on top of good refining skills. This change will make attaining ideal efficiency even more difficult.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#227 - 2014-03-20 18:24:50 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
a mere 200 days to max out refining skills :suicide:


Which is why that particular change is ridiculous in that aspect. And even with those perfect skills, you will stil need perfect standings on top of the necessity to use a reprocessing implant to net the same yield you can in empire space right now.

This is not an example of good design, as it places another tremendous barrier of entry to a young player who would like to get involved with mining and industry in the empire space.

a newbie mining in empire space doesn't need arknor V or any of the other highends that don't spawn in highsec, which are most of the 200 days for me

veld V is 3d


Oh you with your "facts" Roll

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#228 - 2014-03-20 18:25:12 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. The end result is the same.

you pay them part of the profit from your better refines, and you both profit


We both lose compared to the current game......
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2014-03-20 18:27:26 UTC
strikethree wrote:

Ultimately, this game will NOT survive if it is all about alliances and null sec. You need casual players. Lots of them. Stop trying to turn us away by removing the ability to get resources. Actually *think* about what it is like for us. We can not mine for 6 hours a day. We can not run dozens of a missions a day. We can not run alliances out in null (we can barely even participate in any of the battles!). Think about us please.


Casual players can join corps which accept casual players. You get advantages of being in a corp and can still play by yourself. You may not even need to talk to your corpmates.
You can do your 30mins of mining at the weekend, sell to the corp and probably make more than you would by yourself.

None of which is particularly relevant to the changes in this devblog.

Having said that, "We can not run alliances out in null" seems to be coming from someone who is a member of a null sec alliance! Roll (after very quick googling - I'm not good on the politics side of things).
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#230 - 2014-03-20 18:29:14 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:

what about outsourcing by simply buying compressed ore ?

I am concerned that with it being pos-only the supply may not match the demand.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2014-03-20 18:30:16 UTC
Sir HyperChrist wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. The end result is the same.

you pay them part of the profit from your better refines, and you both profit


We both lose compared to the current game......

you just admitted you gain by your increased yield

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#232 - 2014-03-20 18:33:11 UTC
Raquel Smith wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Quote:
Any item not part of the two categories mentioned earlier (like ships and modules) will only be affected by the Scrapmetal Processing skil


so please disconnect the scrapmetal skill from the other dependencies. New players should not have to waste SP on ore reprocessing skills to be able rise efficiency of module reprocessing.


I did this many, many years ago to get access to Scrapmetal Processing. What a kick in the teeth.


yeah same here. Its one of the skills i am 100% sure i will never need once the change is made since i simple don't mine. Just fix it for the new players at least

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2014-03-20 18:33:56 UTC
Well this is going to be a giant nerf to alchemy unless you make them always give the same yield no matter skills/location because you can no longer get 100% or even close to it because it has no ore skill.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#234 - 2014-03-20 18:36:09 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Raquel Smith wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Quote:
Any item not part of the two categories mentioned earlier (like ships and modules) will only be affected by the Scrapmetal Processing skil


so please disconnect the scrapmetal skill from the other dependencies. New players should not have to waste SP on ore reprocessing skills to be able rise efficiency of module reprocessing.


I did this many, many years ago to get access to Scrapmetal Processing. What a kick in the teeth.


yeah same here. Its one of the skills i am 100% sure i will never need once the change is made since i simple don't mine. Just fix it for the new players at least

Why not just improve it to at least add something other than a minuscule 5% extra. Or is there any particular reason why CCP has gone for the arbitrary value of 55% as the maximum. Increasing it to at least 60% would give some reason to still have the skill.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2014-03-20 18:38:22 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).


Compression is going to be fast and simple right? Right click and compress. The time involved is all about transporting the minerals to a POS or Rocqual. Instead of an industrial corporation running many mineral compression jobs (425mm ...) you have the mining corporation using their pos to run the compression module. Someone sits there and compresses the corporation's earnings. Miners in the corp are paid for their ore at fair rates, but the corporation makes money on the compression and transport. I don't see the POS requirement limiting your compression rates since you are removing a more complicated process of industrial building.

Of course there are some additional potential side effects: high sec mining corporations taking over the compression business. These organizations can buy minerals from their miners like they already do and then compress them for a slightly added value. So this will support more high sec mining corporations, but that is not bad right? If you really must buy uncompressed ore and compress it yourself you will have to setup a POS but that is your choice in vertically integrating and eliminates the industrial mineral compressors anyway so you have a better time.

One oddity I have seen is that Rocquals will be able to compress lots of minerals all at once and without the costs of a POS. Currently Rocquals are confined to a POS for safety, but the POS could be doing something else as well. This means that Rocquals have a slight cost advantage over the POS conversion method.
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#236 - 2014-03-20 18:38:32 UTC
I don't like it - mainly because I don't understand it.

If I did, I'd probably love it.

;)

EVE Online: The Text Adventure --- GameSkinny Correspondent --- Freebooted Blogger
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#237 - 2014-03-20 18:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mZSNGLaxi1A-Q818nApcJ2kNJOfnJmhcAcYn-mulzEU/edit?usp=sharing

Ores, before and after.

You'll want to take a copy of it, so you can adjust the numbers for efficiency and so on.


Edit: oops. Typoed on the formula. Corrected now.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#238 - 2014-03-20 18:43:26 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. The end result is the same.

you pay them part of the profit from your better refines, and you both profit


We both lose compared to the current game......

you just admitted you gain by your increased yield


LMAO, an 8% yield increase everyone building capitals in lowsec or nullsec gets, it's only a profit when compared to station reprocessing which is slightly less tedious

it's a loss compared to the current game either way
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#239 - 2014-03-20 18:45:49 UTC
Years ago, being young and foolish (compared to now being old and foolish), I trained all the processing skills to level five, even the scrap metal skill, since I was under the initial impression these skills were a requirement to crush asteroids into minerals. That is, without the skill, the station would not let you reprocess the rock.

If I am reading this blog correctly, even though I am "perfect" in these skills, I will have to now accept a loss - interesting. Yet the overall boost in output may or may not compensate (I have not crunched the numbers, much less if others have yet) to see if this is a balance. Also, is CCP changing the size of the asteroids when they reconfigure reprocessing to be in 100 amount batches? Might have missed that skimming through all of this.

Heh - "Even though you have all your gunnery skills and expanded skills maxed out, the best you can get is around 75% efficiency shooting them. So every one out of four shots may or may not jam your gun for a round."

More "work" for a game...
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#240 - 2014-03-20 18:45:51 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mZSNGLaxi1A-Q818nApcJ2kNJOfnJmhcAcYn-mulzEU/edit?usp=sharing

Ores, before and after.

You'll want to take a copy of it, so you can adjust the numbers for efficiency and so on.

So seems like a slight buff to ore values.