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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#201 - 2014-03-20 18:05:23 UTC
I don't like the change with the compression being immediate, time and a fuel should still be involved with compression. As of just now to compress 250 blocks of ice with a 8 PE BPO is 2 hours and 44 minutes and about 3 hours and 40 minutes with a unresearch BPO and *not at home so can't see how much heavy water used*. Why not make it so the Rorq can compress faster then this new PoS mod? Like the Rorq could compress 250 blocks of ice in an 2 hours and the PoS Mod take 4 hours. Plus this way you could make an Industrial Core II that makes the compress even faster for the Rorq so that 250 blocks of ice only take an hour and 30 minutes, this would give people a reason to buy and use Rorqs. Plus why did you guys make an PoS mod for compression and not make the Orca into a mini Rorq? I mean the model of the Orca looks like it would be easy todo.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#202 - 2014-03-20 18:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Orion Guardian wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns


-Chris


check the new volumes for compression, that might have changed ;)



Compression is ticking in at around 2800 to 3100 units of mineral per M3 (though that's perfect refine. so adjustments will need to be made)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#203 - 2014-03-20 18:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir HyperChrist
Orion Guardian wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:

6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns


-Chris


check the new volumes for compression, that might have changed ;)


it might, it's quite a big info dump in that blog, but it's only a detail in the total list

for now: iirc 425mm guns compressed minerals something like 24:1, compressed veld is now 1:16.5
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#204 - 2014-03-20 18:07:14 UTC
Sir HyperChrist wrote:
Again, it destroys my corps reason to exist. What 5 or 6 people can do now by themselves and some redfrog contracts, will after this take 2 or 3 times the effort and people, will become triple as tedious, and in the end won't be done at all.

CCP Ytterbium: consider above added complexity, is this really what you want?

If it stays like this, I'll stop my capital ventures, I should be able to live off the value of my capital bpo's for a few years. But for that I need someone to sell them to for at least NPC market value, which noone will pay by then:

where can I get reimbursement for my capital bpo's?

I'll find you at fanfest :)

-Chris

Right now capital building is probably too easy. The only effect will be that capital ships will increase in price. This will hurt buyers more than sellers I would assume. (theoretically)
Marsan
#205 - 2014-03-20 18:08:20 UTC
Anys Thes'Realin wrote:


With how volatile the market will be, it seems like this would be as good of time as any to fix ship mineral costs and do away with the "Extra Materials" section. Merging these "Extra Materials" in with the regular materials (and thus affected by Mineral efficiency) would reduce the mineral costs on these T1 ships slightly, and partly alleviating the burden of a diminished Mineral supply.


They can't do a way with the Extra Materials cost on a number of ships as there are still large stocks of those ships built prior to material requirement changes. If you merge the Extra Materials on those ship they can be reprocessed for more than they were built.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Black Maxi
Stoli Holdings
#206 - 2014-03-20 18:08:35 UTC
Well I don't like the change. Nice you want people in low or 0.0 but this I do find a change for the worse. I want to play for an hour I don't want to be part of a F...g big Alliance just to mine save in 0.0 or low sec. Or be able to run missions.


It is a nice change for those people who can play more as 2 hours a day and are member of one of the big alliances in 0.0 . I am not able nor would I like to do that. Neither do I like a big Alliance., small ones don't have a chance and pets are to my reckoning part of the big ones

The biggest problem you have is that the alliances are getting to big. It really will become a game of numbers, more then it allready is. Save mining in 0.0 for the win, any unfriendly is reported over 6 jumps away so tell me?


For some reason I think I will have to look for another game. Before anyones asks no you can't have my stuff!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#207 - 2014-03-20 18:08:47 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
a mere 200 days to max out refining skills :suicide:


Which is why that particular change is ridiculous in that aspect. And even with those perfect skills, you will stil need perfect standings on top of the necessity to use a reprocessing implant to net the same yield you can in empire space right now.

This is not an example of good design, as it places another tremendous barrier of entry to a young player who would like to get involved with mining and industry in the empire space.

a newbie mining in empire space doesn't need arknor V or any of the other highends that don't spawn in highsec, which are most of the 200 days for me

veld V is 3d

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#208 - 2014-03-20 18:08:52 UTC
You'd better let the worldwide aluminium can industry know that recycling used aluminium cans to reuse the aluminium is exactly the same as mining ore and using furnaces to make the aluminium. Also that recycling doesn't save energy or resources. Blink

Oh dear. I am a sarcastic ***** today.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2014-03-20 18:12:27 UTC
One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#210 - 2014-03-20 18:12:46 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:
Again, it destroys my

....

I'll find you at fanfest :)

-Chris

Right now capital building is probably too easy. The only effect will be that capital ships will increase in price. This will hurt buyers more than sellers I would assume. (theoretically)


Yup, I'm enough an entrepeneur to stock up on minerals and ships for now, and wait for the price hike, then see where the new shipprices settle to sell my stocks. After that I can always decide to continue the 425mm gun compressions at 50% loss of minerals :)

Would nullsec like it if their empire supply of capitals doubles in price? It just might happen....
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
#211 - 2014-03-20 18:14:07 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).



hey, thats a big part of my point ! :)
Orion Guardian
#212 - 2014-03-20 18:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Orion Guardian
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
You'd better let the worldwide aluminium can industry know that recycling used aluminium cans to reuse the aluminium is exactly the same as mining ore and using furnaces to make the aluminium. Also that recycling doesn't save energy or resources. Blink

Oh dear. I am a sarcastic ***** today.


Well if you could take a Mobile phone and get all the rare earth metals and oher elements back out of it and perhaps even reuse the plastic so you wouldn't need all the oil to make new....THEN you can make that metaphor work. Even taking 2 phones "reprocessing" them to build 2 more would be quite a challenge in the real world...

Aluminium Cans are 95% aluminium....there is nearly no reprocessing needed....jeez



Thanks Weaselior, must have missed the "instantaneous" part in the blog.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2014-03-20 18:15:12 UTC
Quote:
1) area-buy ores. The miners will have to learn that ores are more valuable than minerals!
2) haul those ores to a station in a system with a pos: 1 veld has a size of 0.1 m3, and contains 3 trit, so 0.033 m3/trit, which is triple the volume as veld, so triple empire haulage!
3) haul all those ores to a high-sec pos. tough to get, corp standings etc: can I buy corp standing for this, like people can now buy concord standing for pvp-ing in highsec?
4) Manually haul ores and compress: we often have more than 1 stack of trit, due to the 2-B unit limit, so I expect 30+ freighter hauls if it were trit, 60 freighter hauls carrying the veld!
5) haul the compressed ores back to station
6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns
7) jump to lowsec station, dock and unload
8) Haul the compressed ores to a low-sec pos for refining Extra risk
9) haul the refined minerals back to station 30 freighter hauls in lowsec
10) build capital comps and ships
11) sell them


you make things waaaaaaay to complicated.

1) area buy COMPRESSED ORES. the miners will also learn that compressed ores are much cooler than uncompressed.
2) haul ore to your jumpout
3) jump ores to lowsec (or even better, nullsec)
4) build capital components and ships
5) sell them
Kollyn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2014-03-20 18:15:49 UTC
I'm the only one who think thats bad for Mission runners and 0.0 ratting income?

When you lower the Reprocessing bei so much?

JackEuchre
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2014-03-20 18:15:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:


We all know that a lot of them make money from mining, processing and then selling the minerals or making stuff. If we undermine their ability to do this how many of them are going to stay around and get more into the game?



which really is by far the most boring activity in eve. i guess more people quit because mining is boring than anything else.

(sadly) there are plenty people around that will buy ore or support newbie miners in mining corps.



Yes but it is probably the most profitable thing a new player can do when they just start out, they're introduced very early on in the tutorials and they give them a good stable income (about 2 million an hour) while their training up for other stuff like combat ships. If they aren't making much money then their going to give up.


Did you miss the part where base ore values are being increased to compensate? The blog makes it very clear that reducing mining income is not an intended result.

Alhough obviously not quite clear enough. What?



Maybe you missed the part where HS refining is being reduced for a Max Skilled pilot to 72.6% and a noob to 52%. Newer players are going to be even more encouraged to sell their ore instead of refining as refining for anyone short of max skills (which takes quite a bit of time to get) is a waste of time.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2014-03-20 18:16:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
a mere 200 days to max out refining skills :suicide:


Which is why that particular change is ridiculous in that aspect. And even with those perfect skills, you will stil need perfect standings on top of the necessity to use a reprocessing implant to net the same yield you can in empire space right now.

This is not an example of good design, as it places another tremendous barrier of entry to a young player who would like to get involved with mining and industry in the empire space.

a newbie mining in empire space doesn't need arknor V or any of the other highends that don't spawn in highsec, which are most of the 200 days for me

veld V is 3d


Add every reprocessing skill related to empire spawning ores to V, their dependents/prerequisites to the queue and you are seeing an increased burden even for a newbie miner or an industrialist. For seasoned players like you, the extra burden CCP intends to place is only worse as you have correctly stated before.

And the new guy won't even be able to attain maximum efficiency unless he trains up for Cybernetics IV and keeps a %4 reprocessing implant plugged in consistently in empire space.

Currently, the new guy is already burdened with attaining good corp and faction standings (which he will need to grind a lot of missions to attain with sufficient combat related skills or pay for someone else to grind for him) on top of the current necessary reprocessing skills required to be trained for efficiency.

This is ridiculous and indicates to me that CCP's grand vision is problematically aligned with milking the existing player base for increased revenue rather than getting new players into the fold.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#217 - 2014-03-20 18:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
This change is highly unlikely to seriously affect the income streams of new players who mine. As written in the devblog, unrefined ore is going to be a LOT more useful to anyone needing minerals than the actual minerals will be, because already-refined minerals will no longer be compressible. New players simply need to sell their ore (or compress it themselves; anchoring 3 is not a particularly long train) to buyers in a trade hub who have the refining skills to get maximum profit from the ore. Heck, I am toying with the idea of bulk purchasing compressed ore in highsec, shipping it to nullsec, refining it at an alliance T3 minmatar outpost, then selling the minerals at a profit. You can be damned sure that I'm going to be willing to purchase the ore from these supposed "new" miners for far more isk than any empire reprocesser is going to be able to stomach.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Quintana Roo
Genbuku.
Psycho Unicorn Squad
#218 - 2014-03-20 18:17:29 UTC
Does this mean capital modules will have their volumes adjusted to a more reasonable level now?
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#219 - 2014-03-20 18:19:31 UTC
Hmm. is it just me or does anyone else think scrap metal processing needs a slight buff. Obviously not a the stupid 100% levels, although 55% with max skills seems trivial, I don't think anything will be worth reprocessing, and the scrap metal skill just adds a miniscule 5% extra, it should at least add 10%.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#220 - 2014-03-20 18:19:35 UTC
Quintana Roo wrote:
Does this mean capital modules will have their volumes adjusted to a more reasonable level now?

Unlikely; then you could carry more types of capital modules for combat refitting. The current values are necessary to minimize this.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.