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Concord Response Time

Author
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-02-14 14:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
I wondered what are the thoughts of people on the current state of balance with regards to suicide ganking and concord response time. Thanks to this excellent article posted by Tippia (Concord Response Time) I have made a few calculation based upon some of the most commonly used ship to gank with.

To summarise the article, the table below lists the data of the current concord response time taken from the article.

SS = Security status of system.
RT1 = Standard concord response time.
RT2 = Concord response time if concord has been spawned elsewhere in the system.

(SS) (RT1) (RT2)

1.00 7.00 13.00
0.90 7.00 13.00
0.80 8.00 14.00
0.70 11.00 17.00
0.60 15.00 21.00
0.50 20.00 26.00

To take a typical suicide ship the catalyst as fitted below. DPS is 564, and Alpha is 1086. The total cost of such a ship is around 10 million isk.

[Catalyst, Cat Alpha]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Using a 0.5 system the catalyst fitted above will be able to fire off 13 round before concord intervenes, 13 rounds = 14,118 damage.

So for 10 million isk, you can take out most of the haulers easily along with all their contents, along with most the mining barges barring the Skiff and Procurer.

Although, if the ganker is wanting to be even more cost efficient they can fit their ship as below, doing 330dps, and alpha at 668, with total cost at under 2 million isk.

[Catalyst, Cat Alpha copy 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer I

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Again using a 0.5 system the catalyst fitted above will be able to fire off 12 rounds before concord intervenes, 12 rounds = 8,016 damage.

8,016 damage will still be enough to take out poorly fitted haulers and mining barges, although with 2 ships as fitted above they will easily take out most haulers and mining barges for the sum of around 4 million isk.

So the solution is to not use any of the basic haulers except for the ones with a greater tank, and in those which can reach around 30k ehp, do not carry more than 16 million isk's worth of items (given that the drop rate is 50%) to make it not worthwhile for the gankers.

Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.

230k / 8,016 = 29 catalysts needed to kill it.
29 catalysts = 58 million isk.

So it would cost a suicide squad 58 million isk to take down a ship worth over 500 million isk assuming nothing in the the cargohold. There is actually nothing I can see that the Orca can do about it, as they will scram it before it has managed to warp away from the stargate. The orca could fight back, although the attacker simply needs to bring a few extra catalysts to counter that.

To me it seems that in this case the isk put on the line by the gankers, is out of balance with the amount of damage the gankers can do. I wondered what were other peoples opinions on this.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2 - 2014-02-14 14:39:40 UTC
This other person's opinion is as follows:

It is what it is. CONCORD response times are fine. Applied DPS to cost is fine. Everything is fine and lovely.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Roxie Glitz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-02-14 14:45:36 UTC
If you suicide gank, you risk to:

shut down some ways of playing further on, because people will know you as a ganker (Maybe awoxer too?) Recruitment can get bad.

You lose security status and you have to farm several hours to get it back

Everyone else in the system can shoot you, mark you as bad standing and you're an outlaw soon
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#4 - 2014-02-14 14:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
pretty much. And if you're willing to conduct ganks that are just slightly unprofitable, just for fun, you will find both lots of targets, and you will take a long time to run out of money. And freighters have way less ehp than that orca, they cost more, and are far easier to catch.

Although, 29 pilots is a lot, I'm more comfortable doing the calculations assuming a t2 catalyst. Its still fairly cheap.

I'd say for starters, return the RoF penalty to turret destroyers. Its a significant change, but it won't break the banks of people ganking retrievers or haulers, and there will certainly be plenty of multi-billion isk whales out there. People found tornado ganking to be worthwhile, but its kind of fallen off because the cheaper and easier alternative.

Roxie Glitz wrote:

shut down some ways of playing further on, because people will know you as a ganker (Maybe awoxer too?) Recruitment can get bad.

You lose security status and you have to farm several hours to get it back

Everyone else in the system can shoot you, mark you as bad standing and you're an outlaw soon


None of which are serious or permanent consequences, and all of which are completely irrelevant on an alt funded through other sources.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Eleanor Wish
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-02-14 14:48:49 UTC
Holy wall of text batman.
Serafiel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-02-14 14:51:10 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
There is actually nothing I can see that the Orca can do about it,


About the same thing as real life container ship (i.e. MAERSK supercontainers, the length of a nuclear aircraft carrier, if you want size differences) could do when under attack by a military-grade helicopter armed with antishipping missiles / torpedos.

It could do exactly nothing, and then blow up, at most. Just my 2 cents. Twisted
flakeys
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-02-14 14:52:14 UTC
Solution : outsource your hauling to 3rd parties ...








Life can be so simple at times .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#8 - 2014-02-14 14:53:50 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:


Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.


Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ?

My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Effect One
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-02-14 14:54:46 UTC
The same thing said of Titans by CCP is true of the inverse situation also: Isk is not a balancing factor.

Material worth has nothing to do with game balance.

'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon

flakeys
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-02-14 14:54:51 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:


Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.


Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ?

My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all.



Uhm that's the concord response thread mate ... Big smile

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Effect One
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-02-14 14:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Effect One
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:


Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.


Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ?

My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all.


He's using EFT/PYFA, which shows EHP based on uniform damage distribution, rather than in game fitting tool figures, which show EHP based upon your lowest resist (i.e. theoretically the worst position you can be in with everything running).

[EDIT] OCD typo correction!

'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#12 - 2014-02-14 14:57:49 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
This other person's opinion is as follows:

It is what it is. CONCORD response times are fine. Applied DPS to cost is fine. Everything is fine and lovely.




Given the marketing team's theme of "Rubicon: the Empires are losing their grasp", I would not be surprised to see in the summer release Concord reaction times increased, dramatically, making life in high sec that much harder.

The sociopaths will get more shots off before Concord shows up, allowing for less gankers needed to take down a ship.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2014-02-14 15:00:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
This other person's opinion is as follows:

It is what it is. CONCORD response times are fine. Applied DPS to cost is fine. Everything is fine and lovely.




Given the marketing team's theme of "Rubicon: the Empires are losing their grasp", I would not be surprised to see in the summer release Concord reaction times increased, dramatically, making life in high sec that much harder.

The sociopaths will get more shots off before Concord shows up, allowing for less gankers needed to take down a ship.
\

Right, because shooting people in a game that gives you free guns is a sure sign of mental illness. Much more so than seeing conspiracies around every corner of that same video game.
Roger Keen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-02-14 15:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Roger Keen
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:


Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.


Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ?

My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all.

Adding Reinforced Bulkheads II will give you 235k ingame EHP without rigs/implants/gangboosts/heat
WASPY69
Xerum.
#15 - 2014-02-14 15:14:05 UTC
OP lost his/her Orca and this is now a stealth "nerf destroyers, buff Orcas" thread.

This signature intentionally left blank

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#16 - 2014-02-14 15:20:15 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:


Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.


Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ?

My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all.



Cargo rigs, damage control, bulkheads, 2 LSEs, max skills, 2 invulns, invulns are pre-heated, turn on only if you're getting ganked. Probably more if you use tanking rigs.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Emma Muutaras
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-02-14 15:26:25 UTC
or to put into perspective an anshar worth over 6bil+ can be killed quite easy in a 0.5 system by a realatively cheap gank fleet

anshar with around 350,000 ehp vs a talos gank gang putting out around 1500 dps by over heating there 8 neutron blasters II's with void loaded.

So 1500 dps is around 6000 alpha (dont sound to bad) with a 4 second cycle time so they get to fire 5 times befor concord arrives!!! 6000 x 5 = 30000 damage so to do the 350k damage to kill it you would only need 12 talos's in theory still i would still want 20 to be on the safe side.

the talos fit is less than 100 mil each so 1.2 bil to kill a 6.5 bil jump freighter that is more than likely has a great deal of value in the cargo bay

the Talos fit

Highs: 8 x Neutron Blaster cannons ii with void + heat

Mids: EMPTY

Lows: 5 x Magnetic Field Stabilizer ii

rigs EMPTY

(all numbers based on on skills lvl 5 and rounded down)
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#18 - 2014-02-14 15:41:46 UTC
WASPY69 wrote:
OP lost his/her Orca and this is now a stealth "nerf destroyers, buff Orcas" thread.


Nothing stealth about it.

Nerf destroyers. Although I'd say freighters need the buff, orcas are mostly fine.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#19 - 2014-02-14 15:53:55 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:


Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.


Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ?

My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all.


My bait orca toon has a similar fit to you, plus a reinforced bulkhead and trimarks. I'm around the 240k EHP mark, so yes, there is something to get it higher than 176k.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-02-14 15:56:29 UTC
The primary role of this ship is to repair others from a distance, for $800!

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

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