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Concord Response Time

Author
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#81 - 2014-02-15 16:23:25 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
Fact-filled post


That was really a quite excellent post that could be fun to throw at the next whinebear who complains about gankers.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#82 - 2014-02-15 16:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Yes, I am simply looking the cost of ships involved, which is a crude measurement of profit.
No, it's a not a measure of profit at all — it's a measure of cost. The disconnect between the two is immense.

Batelle wrote:
Oh come on. Of course it is and should be a balancing factor. It just shouldn't be the only balancing factor.
It's not a normative statement, but one of fact: you simply can't balance using cost. It doesn't weigh up or balance out anything. if something is overpowered by expensive, it is still overpowered; if something is crap but cheap, it's still crap. Irrespective of cost, people will use the former and ignore the latter.

At best, cost is product of balance, as opposed to a factor in it: if the mechanics and ability economy is properly set up, something that is good will end up being expensive, and less efficient kit will trend towards lower prices. But that is a one-way relationship: just because something is expensive does not mean it's actually good — especially not in any overall sense. Specific characteristics may drive the price up to where something is very expensive because it does one thing better than other equivalent pieces of equipment, but that is all.

Price most definitely should not motivate high power because it's the worst motivation imaginable. In fact, it is downright unbalanced to do it like that — if price buys power (rather than the other way around, where power increases price) then you have pay to win, which is horrid. If you have to match cost for cost in order to stand a chance, you know you have long since abandoned all pretences of balance. The only way for it to ever work if you have an completely closed-loop economy where wealth only enters if and when wealth leaves, and even then, you have to make it a 1:1 relationship to the point where it's meaningless to actually involve any equipment at all — just add up and compare wallets, and reduce both by however much the opponent brings.

BrundleMeth wrote:
So as I said, never agrees with anyone...
So what you're saying is that no problems ever exist, that all suggestions are stupid, and/or that all assumptions are flawed? P

Anyway, I agree with people all the time. All they have to do is use well-presented facts and stay away from fallacies.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#83 - 2014-02-15 16:30:56 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The only real issue with suicide ganking is its inherently a carebear activity. Providing you have a scout a few jumps before the pipe you are camping you know exactly what cargo and fittings are on the target, exactly how many ships yuo need to take it out before Concorde arrives and exactly what cost of ships you will lose in the gank.


Proper planning prevents **** poor performance.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#84 - 2014-02-15 16:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Emma Muutaras wrote:
Concord works the same as any other police force they cant punish you before you commit the crime thats why ganking works so well maybe concord should confiscate the loot dropped to solve the ganking threat though i think it will destroy the game
Concord are considerably more efficient than a real world police force, you can't outrun them, you can't leave the scene of a crime, and you can't fight them.

They always get you.

There's no need for them to confiscate loot, IIRC the wreck currently belongs to the victim, so technically it's theirs, until suddenly it's not, and now belongs to a suspect.

The safety catch pretty much killed mission baiting, the would be victim now has to make a conscious choice before engaging or have the safety already off. The mechanics changed, and so did the tactics used. Hence more mission runners are dying to suicide ganks, especially those who like their bling. Can flipping is dead, all it's good for now is going suspect.

Crimewatch 2.0 and Concord mean only the most determined groups are ganking on a true profit making scale.

In short Concord is fine, any lowering of response times will simply be responded to with more firepower. Any ganker worth their salt would adapt and simply bring more friends to the party, and potentially still profit from doing so.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#85 - 2014-02-15 16:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Ok...here is some info.

[Thrasher, autothrash]

Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium Subordinate Screen Stabilizer I
Medium Subordinate Screen Stabilizer I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

250mm Light Prototype Siege Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Prototype Siege Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Prototype Siege Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Prototype Siege Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Prototype Siege Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Prototype Siege Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Prototype Siege Cannon, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
[Empty High slot]

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Here is a 3m isk gate thrasher. Use this against auto-piloting shuttles (including the leopard), noobships and capsules at gates. It will tank gate guns for up to 9s, enough for you to pull 2 salvoes (one for the ship, one for the pod). With the standard SS-903 and SP-603 you will get an alpha of about 1074 points and 10.2k EHP against gate guns.

DEFENSE: Stop autopiloting like an idiot in your egg/shuttle.



[Moa, automoa]

Linear Flux Stabilizer I
Linear Flux Stabilizer I
Linear Flux Stabilizer I
Linear Flux Stabilizer I

Large Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Alumel-Wired Sensor Augmentation, Scan Resolution Script
Alumel-Wired Sensor Augmentation, Scan Resolution Script

250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Here is a 13.5m isk gate moa. Use this against auto-piloting industrials at gates. It will tank gate guns comfortably until CONCORD arrives, and will give you the opportunity to kill the pod too. With the standard SS-903 and MH-803 you will get an alpha of about 1313 points, 26k EHP against gate guns and 511DPS.

DEFENSE:Stop autopiloting like an idiot in your T1 indy. Learn to use the MWD+cloak trick, stay at the keyboard and pay attention to your route when you are hauling stuff you do not want to lose. If you can't be arsed to pay attention, contract your stuff to a corp like red frog or push industries. They will insure and move it for you for a small commission without you having to lift a finger.



[Catalyst, T2 Gank]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Prototype Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script
Prototype Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]


Here is a 13.5m isk gank cata. Use this against any target. With the standard SH-603 and RF-903 you will get about 715-728 DPS. If you are running in a pack against non afk targets, then make sure someone drops a sebo and the damage rig for a POU and meta2 scram. You can also use a meta variant of the above, which will do about 474-490DPS for a 3mil procurement cost.

DEFENSE: If you are mining, stop being an afk bot and tank your barge/exhumer. Pay attention to what is happening around you, make friends so that you can gather info and defend yourself (via identifying known ganker alts, spotters, using ECM on the field etc), and orbit the rock instead of playing dead in the middle of the field. Even better, procure a mining permit that will remove a good chunk of possible aggression against your mining ship for peanuts (10mil isk), and also help to make highsec a better place. If you have an Orca, tank it properly if you stay on the field. You can get 300k EHP out of it.

If you are missioning, stop flying ridiculously expensive gank magnets. Learn to use your Dscan and pay attention to what is happening around you.

If you are a freighter pilot, use friends to help you when you are hauling valuable stuff (webbers, Ewar or counter-ganking). Pay attention to what is happening around you, don't overfill your cargo hold like an idiot and learn to use dotlan and the starmap to identify problems and re-route safely.



In what way is highsec ganking or CONCORD response time right now imbalanced? All I see is players failing to adapt to their surroundings and then blaming the game for it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2014-02-15 17:10:00 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
DEFENSE: Stop autopiloting like an idiot in your egg/shuttle. […]

DEFENSE:Stop autopiloting like an idiot in your T1 indy. Learn to use the MWD+cloak trick, stay at the keyboard and pay attention to your route […]

DEFENSE: If you are mining, stop being an afk bot and tank your barge/exhumer. Pay attention to what is happening around you, make friends so that you can gather info and defend yourself (via identifying known ganker alts, spotters, using ECM on the field etc), and orbit the rock instead of playing dead in the middle of the field. […]

If you are missioning, stop flying ridiculously expensive gank magnets. Learn to use your Dscan and pay attention to what is happening around you. […]

If you are a freighter pilot, use friends to help you when you are hauling valuable stuff (webbers, Ewar or counter-ganking). Pay attention to what is happening around you, don't overfill your cargo hold like an idiot and learn to use dotlan and the starmap to identify problems and re-route safely.

You realise, of course, that these are highly improbable and counter-intuitive measures for their intended audience to take… Blink
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#87 - 2014-02-15 17:12:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:

You realise, of course, that these are highly improbable and counter-intuitive measures for their intended audience to take… Blink


I do, but thats a mentality problem really. We are arguing about mechanics here...C:
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#88 - 2014-02-15 17:12:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You realise, of course, that these are highly improbable and counter-intuitive measures for their intended audience to take… Blink
If only people put as much effort into not getting ganked as gankers put into ganking them...

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2014-02-15 17:19:32 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You realise, of course, that these are highly improbable and counter-intuitive measures for their intended audience to take… Blink
If only people put as much effort into not getting ganked as gankers put into ganking them...

But that takes effort!

(Or at least more effort than it takes to go to the forums and complain about how little effort gankers supposedly have to put into their work.)
Vyl Vit
#90 - 2014-02-15 18:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Calling suicide ganking "work". That's so funny. "All the work they have to go to...to successfully...."
Consider a career in standup.

Almost as funny as "procure a permit". As in: It's fundamentally sound EVE skill to submit to coercion.

I do hope you both are serious comedians IRL.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2014-02-15 21:05:23 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:

Almost as funny as "procure a permit". As in: It's fundamentally sound EVE skill to submit to coercion.


Not JUST fundamentally sound.....but destiny.
There is no shame in submitting to your betters and purchasing a permit when that is the natural order of things.

And miners are especially comfortable with this arrangement. After all, 10M ISK is a trifling sum in an exchange for a lifetime of peace of mind while toiling for the betterment of your fellow pod pilot.

But still, for years....I've often wondered, why they don't fight back? Why don't they kill us?

The science of phrenology helps us understand the differences between miners and gankers.

Next time you pod a miner, be sure to crack open his skull and observe!
Three dimples in the area of the skull most associated with servility.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#92 - 2014-02-16 06:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
One thing I don't understand, if ganking is so easy and profitable, why don't the carebears do it? It doesn't make sense.

And please if you want to invoke the "morality" (no imagination) clause, all you do in EVE is fueling the destruction of ships, how do you think those catalysts are built anyways? So if you don't like destruction, candy crush is free.

I have been flying my mwed, bulkhead, dcII fitted orca with 1b in loot for over a year and it never even got an attempt on it. According to your calculations if I hold above 100m in it, it should get ganked, please explain that to me.


Nothing like the taste of carebear tears in the morning.
Elena Ranning
008Bezirk322sschornsteinfeg432ermeiste0191r
#93 - 2014-02-16 12:15:50 UTC
Elena Ranning wrote:
You can delay Concord's intervention in hi sec if you train Bribery to level 3-4.


This.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#94 - 2014-02-19 17:38:28 UTC
Elena Ranning wrote:
Elena Ranning wrote:
You can delay Concord's intervention in hi sec if you train Bribery to level 3-4.


This.


You forgot to log over to your sock puppet before you quoted yourself.

Whoops.

I am not an alt of Chribba.

Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#95 - 2014-02-19 20:11:01 UTC
OP, have you tried suicide ganking?

I did it for several months. I haven't done it in a while because I found the profitability to be too inconsistent. It was a lot of fun though! If you tried your own hand at it, you'd see that it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. Now the troll who sits on the Urlen gate in an Onyx stealing ganker loot is another story...

Rhatar Khurin
Doomheim
#96 - 2014-02-19 20:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhatar Khurin
In response to the fits for suicide gank ships, i would like to throw in a couple of mining ship fits that i have found work well.

RETRIEVER

Strip Lasers x 2

Survey scanner

Damage control, 2 x Mining laser upgrades

Medium Anti-Thermal screen reinforcer, Medium Anti-Kinetic screen reinforcer, Medium Core defense field extender

5 x Light combat drones

This can tank safely a single T2 gank fit catalyst 0.5 or higher


MACKINAW

Strip Lasers x 2

Survey scanner, Gistum C-Type Thermal amplifier, Gistum C-type Kinetic amplifier, EM Ward amplfier

Damage control, 2 x Mining laser upgrades

2 x Medium core defense field extender

5 x ECM Drones
5 x Light combat drones

This can safely tank two T2 catalysts (upto 3 potentially if the ECM drones do their job) in a 0.5 or higher
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#97 - 2014-02-19 21:42:58 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I
Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.

230k / 8,016 = 29 catalysts needed to kill it.
29 catalysts = 58 million isk.

So it would cost a suicide squad 58 million isk to take down a ship worth over 500 million isk assuming nothing in the the cargohold. There is actually nothing I can see that the Orca can do about it, as they will scram it before it has managed to warp away from the stargate. The orca could fight back, although the attacker simply needs to bring a few extra catalysts to counter that.

To me it seems that in this case the isk put on the line by the gankers, is out of balance with the amount of damage the gankers can do. I wondered what were other peoples opinions on this.


First, your example has a really dumb Orca pilot. The 29 man gank squad is going to have to pull Concord off grid. The Orca player should be getting the hell out of there when he sees 29 players go criminal in a 0.5 system. That screams gank squad. More realistically, you would want 40 players as you won't pull concord beforehand and you want some leeway if a few pilots screw up(plus you need a scout).

This brings me to my main point, you are valuing the time of the players at 0 isk. Organizing that many players takes a lot of work. Many of your pilots are going to be criminals. They have to deal with faction police. And at the end of all this, the pilots make very little isk, if any. If it takes an hour to organize and pull off this gank, thats a billion isk that could have been earned doing incursions or missions.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#98 - 2014-02-19 21:45:11 UTC
Buck Futz wrote:
Really, its funny how the argument has come full circle since 2008.

2008:
Teary eyed Carebears: "Ganking is too easy!"

Nursemaid CCP: "OK, we'll half the Concord response time and double the sec penalties"

Gankers: "OK, whatever"
And they bring more firepower to the zone, insure it, and start ganking with -10 chars.

Late 2011:
Carebears: "No fair that gankers get insurance - it doesn't make sense!"

Gankers: "Well, neither does insurance for self-destruction? WTF...."
(self destruction of ships for profit was actually big business at the time, a highly profitable carebear activity....)

Carebears: "I don't care! CCP, Remove insurance for gankers and then things will be fine!"

CCP: "OK, OK, fine - no more insurance for gankers."

Gankers: "Sigh..."
Early 2012:
And they start launching multiple rapid-fire raids while GCCed the whole time. Ice belts are cleared. A Youtube video is produced to much hilarity.

Carebears: "NO FAIR! EXPLOIT!"

CCP: "Nerfed."
Early 2012:
Gankers: Tornado Boomerang tactic is developed. Ice belts are cleared. Freighters are popped.

Carebears: "NO FAIR! EXPLOIT!"

CCP: "Nerfed."

2012:
Gankers return to their roots and group up and start profiting by clearing belts with small gangs of cheap ships.
Player driven content is provided when Goonswarm steps in and provides a replacement for insurance - the Exhumer bounty during Hulkaggeddon infinite.

Carebears: "Fix exhumers! I shouldn't have to tank my mining ship! Ganking miners shouldn't be profitable!!!"

CCP: "Sure, sure. We'll redesign Exhumers so you no longer have to use any fitting sense. Quadruple the EHP. And we'll give them massive cargoholds so you can AFK all you like! And for the truly risk-adverse - here's a 10M ISK T1 Barge with battleship-level EHP! Ha Ha! What a funny joke!"

Carebears: "BB...But I can't fit enough mining crystals into my Hulk's cargohold! Give us MORE cargo hold."

CCP: "Good point. We'll reduce the size of the crystals."

Carebears: "But I can't fit ALL the crystals in there, the Hulk sucks!"

CCP: "STFU, and fly the good ships we just spoon fed you."

Gankers roll their eyes. Miner ganking loses its profitability.
'Hulkageddon' dies - because nobody flies Hulks anymore.

2012-2014

CCP: "Hey look guys, Crimewatch! We'll really stick it to those dirty highsec criminals now! Killrights!"
Carebears: "Yay!"
Gankers: (yawn) "Seriously? We are ALREADY -10, remember? Killrights are meaningless!"
Carebears: "BRB, selling my killrights now!"

Miniluv continues killing freighters on an industrial scale.
James 315 steps in and finds creative ways to motivate, inspire, and fund Exhumer gankers, pushing them to greater and greater achievements.

And, as always, the carebear whines continue apace.

Carebears: "Speed up Concord MORE!"
Carebears: "NPCs should start podding! But not mission runners, ONLY gankers!"
Carebears: "Buff freighters, 150-200K EHP isn't enough when I want to haul 10B ISK worth of cargo through Uedama!"
Carebears: "Nerf destroyers!"



Quoted simply because this belongs on more than one page, and also will be sown onto my bedsheets.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#99 - 2014-02-19 21:49:28 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
WASPY69 wrote:
OP lost his/her Orca and this is now a stealth "nerf destroyers, buff Orcas" thread.

Quite the opposite actually, I was simply doing some risk calculation as before I had been estimating the risk based simply on Tornado alpha when hauling. It seems my estimates were way out though and now thinking back I feel lucky I wasn't ganked many time before as it surely would have been profitable for the gankers to do so.

In light of these finding I would suggest reducing the concord response time in order to balance things out slightly.

My other thoughts on the matter would be that the rebalanced Transport ships could help out in this matter, the cloaked hauler could be given more cargo capacity as it is already immune from this problem, and the heavy transport ships could be buffed significantly to make them viable to be used in high sec. Right now a maximum tanked Impel with only 5000m3 capacity can be taken out by 10 T1 catalysts costing 20 million, or 6 T2 catalysts costing 60 million.



The problem is that you are comparing 1 guy hauling to dozens of guys organizing a gank. A large gank fleet should be more efficient. If the Orca hired 2 guys to protect him or to scout, he would never get caught.

For a better comparision, look at ships that one person can kill by themselves.