These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Concord Response Time

Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2014-02-14 18:32:22 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors.
Your main error is that you try to make claims about profitability when all you do is look at a single cost.
Lucie Devlin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-14 19:14:43 UTC
Read www.minerbumoing.com. Have you ever seen an article in which 29 agents ganked anything? Didn't think so. That is a lot of people to organise to undertake a pretty niche activity. There is your mistake. It's too hard in terms of logistics.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#43 - 2014-02-14 19:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Vyl Vit wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Hi! I'm a hauler! No! I won't haul your stuff! Do the math...oh, someone already did!

When the numbers say "X", and the ones who can control the numbers say "WHY?" all that's left for enlightened self-interest's sake is to BOYCOTT. Do like me. Don't. Don't mine. Don't haul. Don't manufacture. Let the gank squads play it out. Let the market run dry. Let it all become the zero sum game it's inclined to be.

When the gankers can buy no more ships, since there's no more ships to buy. So what? And, guess what. If they try to take up the slack themelves, GANK THEM.

Let's memorialize how long this battle lasts. We could have a pile of Caracals in Jita commemorating the day the market went to ZERO.

Thenk yew beddy much.
You imply that people are ants only capable of doing one thing and one thing only. People have and can create mining and industry alts if they need to. You and thousand others could stop and all that would happen is that others take your place... and hopefully these others are people who don't play victims... unlike you and your kind.
Frankly, I see no such implication, and only see you mischaracterizing what was said. The only reason for this that makes sense is "your kind" is a ganker afraid Serene's idea would work, and YOU'D have to stop being the ant and find something ELSE to do.

How will you identify the ganker industry alts from other players? I guess you could start ganking anyone with a code pledge in their bio, but that hasn't gone over well with the mining populace in the past. Plus the fast that the majority (around 90%) of the cost of one of our catalysts fits is the t2 guns, which while I don't have the numbers on, I assume the limiting factor in production is materials produced in null (please correct me if I'm wrong on this). High sec miners are welcome to take on nullsec cartels, I will even encourage the action while I grab popcorn. Hm, I wonder what the actual mineral production from code compliant miners is at this point. I'm sure its still relatively small, but growing. Multiboxers seem to like us in my limited experience.

Lucie Devlin wrote:
Read www.minerbumoing.com. Have you ever seen an article in which 29 agents ganked anything? Didn't think so. That is a lot of people to organise to undertake a pretty niche activity. There is your mistake. It's too hard in terms of logistics.

We got over 15 last night so hopefully we'll get there (20 something in fleet including scouts). There's some groups that can actually organize that 20-50 people for efficient JF ganks.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2014-02-14 19:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Abyss Azizora
*sigh* The one and only solution to suicide ganking is to make all loot dropped by the victim to be confiscated by concord. (In other words nothing drops from suicide ganked ships.) This allows for suicide ganks to still be used against enemies and people who pissed someone off, and the target loses the ship/fittings/cargo, while preventing it from being profitable to do. (Which even CCP admits is how it's supposed to be.)

There, now you have a mechanic that works, but isn't horribly lopsided. You can still suicide gank that moron carrying 2000 PLEX in a shuttle and get a killmail and bragging rights, and the guy loses all 2000 PLEX, but you don't get to make it a career doing it.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-02-14 20:21:19 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Hi! I'm a hauler! No! I won't haul your stuff! Do the math...oh, someone already did!

When the numbers say "X", and the ones who can control the numbers say "WHY?" all that's left for enlightened self-interest's sake is to BOYCOTT. Do like me. Don't. Don't mine. Don't haul. Don't manufacture. Let the gank squads play it out. Let the market run dry. Let it all become the zero sum game it's inclined to be.

When the gankers can buy no more ships, since there's no more ships to buy. So what? And, guess what. If they try to take up the slack themelves, GANK THEM.

Let's memorialize how long this battle lasts. We could have a pile of Caracals in Jita commemorating the day the market went to ZERO.

Thenk yew beddy much.


Half the gankers mine , manufacture and trade.
They are out to stop their competition and your boycott is playing into their hands.
Is it their fault that they understand that profits will go up if competition declines?

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#46 - 2014-02-14 20:22:27 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
*sigh* The one and only solution to suicide ganking ...


You're implying that suicide ganking is a problem, but it's not.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#47 - 2014-02-14 20:29:32 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
*sigh* The one and only solution to suicide ganking is to make all loot dropped by the victim to be confiscated by concord. (In other words nothing drops from suicide ganked ships.) This allows for suicide ganks to still be used against enemies and people who pissed someone off, and the target loses the ship/fittings/cargo, while preventing it from being profitable to do. (Which even CCP admits is how it's supposed to be.)

There, now you have a mechanic that works, but isn't horribly lopsided. You can still suicide gank that moron carrying 2000 PLEX in a shuttle and get a killmail and bragging rights, and the guy loses all 2000 PLEX, but you don't get to make it a career doing it.


Things like this, as well as the OP, can be boiled down to the following:

"How dare those gankers make a profit!"

That's kind of selfish don't you think?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-02-14 20:37:16 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:


Finally, I had a look at the Orca, and to me it doesn't seem balanced, although I was wondering what other people's opinions are on this. The Orca can reach around 230k EHP.


Specious. How did you arrive at that 230 K ?

My Orca is solidly at all level V's including core skills, decked out with shield extender, invulterability field, and Damage Control II, and it's never above 176,000 EHP. And there ain't nuthin' to get that higher at all.

There are many things which allow the Orca higher than 176k, fitted correctly it can push over 300k with no cargo mods. And I am using EFT for this calculation.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2014-02-14 20:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
I've never understand the hate against making a profit from ganking.

EVE is a simulated world with simulated crime. Sometimes crime does pay.

Without interesting events like crime and other such things (like risk), why play a game in the 1st place? For me, part of the game is defeating the risks and dangers and being able to be smug about it in local (like I was in local in niarja back in 2006 when I survived a gank of my tanked to hell iteron 5 because i was carrying an officer mod worth 200 mil, it wasn't even a good one lol).
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#50 - 2014-02-14 20:43:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
of um tanked to hell iteron 5 ...snip... it wasn't even a good one lol.


I agree, the Iteron V, like all Gallente ships is not good.

Caldari State Best State.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-02-14 20:46:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
My calculations are laid out in the OP, so feel free to correct any errors.
Your main error is that you try to make claims about profitability when all you do is look at a single cost.

Yes, I am simply looking the cost of ships involved, which is a crude measurement of profit. The real question though is how safe should high sec actually be, and I am ambivalent towards either as long as it isn't ever 100% safe. These calculation were simply meant to show how efficient purely in terms of isk cost it is to take out ships hauling in high sec, and they also show that high sec is not safe at all, even when hauling in an Orca.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#52 - 2014-02-14 20:52:04 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
The real question though is how safe should high sec actually be, and I am ambivalent towards either as long as it isn't ever 100% safe.


No absolutes.

It is one thing to say an Orca got blown up. No one cares.

It's another thing to say every Orca gets blown up. At that point there is a problem.

However, until we are at a point where every Orca, Charon, Obelisk, etc gets blown up there is no problem and high sec is safe enough.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-02-14 21:02:28 UTC
Move away from Jita, Amarr and where ever them other 2 trade hubs are in hippie space.

And train to overheat your tanks
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#54 - 2014-02-14 21:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

Quote:
To me it seems that in this case the isk put on the line by the gankers, is out of balance with the amount of damage the gankers can do. I wondered what were other peoples opinions on this.
Cost is not a balancing factor.


Oh come on. Of course it is and should be a balancing factor. It just shouldn't be the only balancing factor.

Abyss Azizora wrote:
*sigh* The one and only solution to suicide ganking is to make all loot dropped by the victim to be confiscated by concord. (In other words nothing drops from suicide ganked ships.) This allows for suicide ganks to still be used against enemies and people who pissed someone off, and the target loses the ship/fittings/cargo, while preventing it from being profitable to do. (Which even CCP admits is how it's supposed to be.)


This is stupid.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#55 - 2014-02-14 21:08:48 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

Quote:
To me it seems that in this case the isk put on the line by the gankers, is out of balance with the amount of damage the gankers can do. I wondered what were other peoples opinions on this.
Cost is not a balancing factor.


Oh come on. Of course it is and should be a balancing factor. It just shouldn't be the only balancing factor.


Obviously.

The problem comes when people think that they should not have lost a ship, just because it was expensive. Especially when they were killed by the concentrated efforts of a dozen or more people.

Which is the issue in the first place. That some people believe that their pricetag should be their tank, and they shouldn't have to fit anything else.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Deano McCandless
Doomheim
#56 - 2014-02-14 21:25:30 UTC
Should baseball bats cost the same as Ferraris?

My ex seems to think so.


All Dead All Dead
But I should not grieve
In time it comes to everyone
All Dead All Dead
But in hope I breathe
Of course I don't believe
BrundleMeth
Black Parrot
Sylvanas Super mercenary
#57 - 2014-02-14 21:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: BrundleMeth
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I wondered what are the thoughts of people on the current state of balance with regards to suicide ganking and concord response time. Thanks to this excellent article posted by Tippia...
Stopped right there. I've never read a post yet where Tippia actually agrees with anyone, anytime on any subject...
Kirsi Kirjasto
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#58 - 2014-02-14 23:00:50 UTC
BrundleMeth wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I wondered what are the thoughts of people on the current state of balance with regards to suicide ganking and concord response time. Thanks to this excellent article posted by Tippia...
Stopped right there. I've never read a post yet where Tippia actually agrees with anyone, anytime on any subject...


Nope. He just likes pointing out flawed assumptions behind stupid suggestions for nonexistent problems. In as few words as possible.
BrundleMeth
Black Parrot
Sylvanas Super mercenary
#59 - 2014-02-14 23:21:32 UTC
Kirsi Kirjasto wrote:
BrundleMeth wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I wondered what are the thoughts of people on the current state of balance with regards to suicide ganking and concord response time. Thanks to this excellent article posted by Tippia...
Stopped right there. I've never read a post yet where Tippia actually agrees with anyone, anytime on any subject...


Nope. He just likes pointing out flawed assumptions behind stupid suggestions for nonexistent problems. In as few words as possible.

So as I said, never agrees with anyone...
Pix Severus
Empty You
#60 - 2014-02-14 23:23:34 UTC
I speed-tank my Badger.

It's my favourite hauler because it's just so damn fast, I swear I've outrun shuttles in this thing and I'm not even joking.

MTU Hunter: Latest Entry - June 12 2017 - Vocal Local 5

MTU Hunting 101: Comprehensive Guide