These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Null sec what chance does the little guy have

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2014-02-13 05:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Andski wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Wrong bots go where they can consistently and without interruption grind out average isk over long periods of time.


You mean mission systems?

Who cares. Bots do well because they can play like some goons, lots of accounts but without the poopsocking. In other words bots don't do well they just do it longer and with many accounts to make up for highsecs poor income streams.

Also I'm pretty sure there's a ton of bots down in your PB renter areas. 20+ Dommie fleets, 15 Hulk Fleets... could be isboxers but if they are they certainly play a lot.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#142 - 2014-02-13 05:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Baltec, soloing L4s in hi-sec will not earn you 120 mil/hour. If you are very quick maybe you'll get 50? Now if w'ere talking about multiboxing it, different story. Anyways, I still agree about hi-sec profits overall.


It was tested with a single mach, it pulled 118 mil/hr.

50 mil/hr was what a single ishtar was netting in level 3 missions even after the drone changes.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#143 - 2014-02-13 05:25:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anoms to missions aren't task for task, missions to missions would be, which means that I misspoke earlier when only listing availability as being a factor for just incursions. And even then, the difference comes out because of the secondary reward that is LP conversion, pointing out that anoms 1) are terrible in their own right in reward:effort and 2) are the reason null "can't be buffed" due to isk injection concerns.

Neither of those are inherently highsec's fault though.


Anoms are what null sov has in place of high sec level 4 missions so they are "task for task".

What is high secs fault is that it was never nerfed at the same time that null was, this has resulted in an ever widening gap over the years. Null has slowly gone from the best reward to the worst. This has helped in reducing the amount of players/corps/alliances trying to get out into null sov for the rewards which has resulted in a handful of powers holding vast swaths of mostly useless space with little resistance or attempts by smaller groups to take and hold space.



Does this imaginary scenario include enhanced ESS payouts, the almost complete decline of high-sec LP (with one notable and recent bubble), and/or any of null's other native PVE content? Cause I think you skipped a few things.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#144 - 2014-02-13 05:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Loraine Gess wrote:



Does this imaginary scenario include enhanced ESS payouts, the almost complete decline of high-sec LP (with one notable and recent bubble), and/or any of null's other native PVE content? Cause I think you skipped a few things.


ESS are not widely used because they are just terrible to use. However we have used them for gathering data and high sec still works out as being better.

The other forms of combat pve in null are belt ratting which is just terrible isk/hr and gets beaten by high sec level 3s and complex running which works fine for risk/reward when compared to high secs plex running but it can only support at most 100 pilots per region, so its not great when you have tens of thousands of pilots.

This is also not imaginary, we tell our pilots to make their isk in empire.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#145 - 2014-02-13 05:45:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Baltec, soloing L4s in hi-sec will not earn you 120 mil/hour. If you are very quick maybe you'll get 50? Now if w'ere talking about multiboxing it, different story. Anyways, I still agree about hi-sec profits overall.


It was tested with a single mach, it pulled 118 mil/hr.

50 mil/hr was what a single ishtar was netting in level 3 missions even after the drone changes.



LOL..yes, people certainly believe any proof coming from a goon, who set the standard for honesty in the game.
Hey baltec, according to another study with equal veracity as this, you are considered as a safer person for 3rd party super-cap trading than Chribba.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2014-02-13 05:50:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:



Does this imaginary scenario include enhanced ESS payouts, the almost complete decline of high-sec LP (with one notable and recent bubble), and/or any of null's other native PVE content? Cause I think you skipped a few things.


ESS are not widely used because they are just terrible to use. However we have used them for gathering data and high sec still works out as being better.

The other forms of combat pve in null are belt ratting which is just terrible isk/hr and gets beaten by high sec level 3s and complex running which works fine for risk/reward when compared to high secs plex running but it can only support at most 100 pilots per region, so its not great when you have tens of thousands of pilots.

This is also not imaginary, we tell our pilots to make their isk in empire.

When exactly do you have 10's of thousands of pilots per region? :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2014-02-13 05:50:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anoms to missions aren't task for task, missions to missions would be, which means that I misspoke earlier when only listing availability as being a factor for just incursions. And even then, the difference comes out because of the secondary reward that is LP conversion, pointing out that anoms 1) are terrible in their own right in reward:effort and 2) are the reason null "can't be buffed" due to isk injection concerns.

Neither of those are inherently highsec's fault though.


Anoms are what null sov has in place of high sec level 4 missions so they are "task for task".

What is high secs fault is that it was never nerfed at the same time that null was, this has resulted in an ever widening gap over the years. Null has slowly gone from the best reward to the worst. This has helped in reducing the amount of players/corps/alliances trying to get out into null sov for the rewards which has resulted in a handful of powers holding vast swaths of mostly useless space with little resistance or attempts by smaller groups to take and hold space.

Actually no, that doesn't put hisec at fault, it puts nullsec content at fault. Which in turn means it can be buffed after first being fixed and in so doing can fix highsec without changing it by directly competing with what makes up the bulk of highsec mission rewards, LP.

Turn anoms into something that gives consistent rewards competitive with or slightly superior to empire LP rewards and the issue solves itself. Highsec isn't too good, amons are just that bad.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2014-02-13 05:55:05 UTC
I do agree anoms could use a buff. Though they're still better than L4s at higher anom levels.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#149 - 2014-02-13 05:55:24 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Anoms to missions aren't task for task, missions to missions would be, which means that I misspoke earlier when only listing availability as being a factor for just incursions. And even then, the difference comes out because of the secondary reward that is LP conversion, pointing out that anoms 1) are terrible in their own right in reward:effort and 2) are the reason null "can't be buffed" due to isk injection concerns.

Neither of those are inherently highsec's fault though.


Anoms are what null sov has in place of high sec level 4 missions so they are "task for task".

What is high secs fault is that it was never nerfed at the same time that null was, this has resulted in an ever widening gap over the years. Null has slowly gone from the best reward to the worst. This has helped in reducing the amount of players/corps/alliances trying to get out into null sov for the rewards which has resulted in a handful of powers holding vast swaths of mostly useless space with little resistance or attempts by smaller groups to take and hold space.

Actually no, that doesn't put hisec at fault, it puts nullsec content at fault. Which in turn means it can be buffed after first being fixed and in so doing can fix highsec without changing it by directly competing with what makes up the bulk of highsec mission rewards, LP.

Turn anoms into something that gives consistent rewards competitive with or slightly superior to empire LP rewards and the issue solves itself. Highsec isn't too good, amons are just that bad.


LOl...you should read the current crossing zebra's blog post by a goon who "operates" a system in Deklin, and his comments about how many people are running in his system simultaneously.

IT is too bad that the goon liars on the forums can't co-ordinate with their counterparts on the blogs.
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
#150 - 2014-02-13 06:02:19 UTC
Think about it like game of thrones. If you don't make allies, other people will, and they may band against you.
Hi.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2014-02-13 06:09:48 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

When exactly do you have 10's of thousands of pilots per region? :)



We have far far more pilots logged on at any one time than our entire space can handle when it comes to plex running. How many times must people tell you this before it sinks in?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#152 - 2014-02-13 06:12:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I do agree anoms could use a buff. Though they're still better than L4s at higher anom levels.


How?

We have the numbers and none show that anoms get anywhere near what high sec level 4s can earn.

Please show us where you are finding these anoms.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2014-02-13 06:20:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I do agree anoms could use a buff. Though they're still better than L4s at higher anom levels.


How?

We have the numbers and none show that anoms get anywhere near what high sec level 4s can earn.

Please show us where you are finding these anoms.

Your numbers don't add up because you are comparing multiple account holding multiple ship running missioners who game the system so they only take the best LP offers by using their multiple accounts to spam agents in many systems.

The average missioner has one mission ship and one account and run missions as they come up. If they do decline twice they have to travel to a new agent to do the mission.



CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#154 - 2014-02-13 06:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I do agree anoms could use a buff. Though they're still better than L4s at higher anom levels.


How?

We have the numbers and none show that anoms get anywhere near what high sec level 4s can earn.

Please show us where you are finding these anoms.

Your numbers don't add up because you are comparing multiple account holding multiple ship running missioners who game the system so they only take the best LP offers by using their multiple accounts to spam agents in many systems.

The average missioner has one mission ship and one account and run missions as they come up. If they do decline twice they have to travel to a new agent to do the mission.





No we are using a single mach running missions, they also do not have to move to another agent to decline missions.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2014-02-13 06:39:09 UTC
In that case your numbers are wrong. I ran missions to get isk since 2003 and there is no way to make 100 million per hour IMO.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#156 - 2014-02-13 06:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
The problem is that the majority of anomalies in 0.0 are never run because they're ****-tier. I'm sorry but "let's make 2-3 types of worthwhile anomalies and, to balance it out, make the rest so horrible that nobody will run them" isn't good game design.

A fully upgraded system with good truesec should support more than a few simultaneous anomaly runners. Make them more challenging, whatever, but make them worth running.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#157 - 2014-02-13 06:55:14 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
In that case your numbers are wrong. I ran missions to get isk since 2003 and there is no way to make 100 million per hour IMO.


Then you are bad at running missions. We have easy access to data that gives the rewards for every mission, how long it takes to run them, how much time is spent in warp and payment breakdowns.

All of this information is easy to find on several sites and in game if you take the time to test this like we have done. We are continuing to gather more and more data so that we can hand it over to CCP in CSM meetings and get them to fix this very long standing balance problem which will help with getting more people in smaller corps/alliances interested in trying to take a bitof null for themselves. Right now there is no reason to fight us for a worthless null system.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#158 - 2014-02-13 07:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Linkxsc162534
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
In that case your numbers are wrong. I ran missions to get isk since 2003 and there is no way to make 100 million per hour IMO.


Then you are bad at running missions. We have easy access to data that gives the rewards for every mission, how long it takes to run them, how much time is spent in warp and payment breakdowns.

All of this information is easy to find on several sites and in game if you take the time to test this like we have done. We are continuing to gather more and more data so that we can hand it over to CCP in CSM meetings and get them to fix this very long standing balance problem which will help with getting more people in smaller corps/alliances interested in trying to take a bitof null for themselves. Right now there is no reason to fight us for a worthless null system.



Heh, "how much time spent in warp" Kid you keep talking about this "data" you have, and well I don't really feel like spending an hour or 2 trying to find this misery data. If you'd be so kind, post a link.


Personally I've been missioning for most the whole time I've been play, with the exception of a few months in WH, and a year in null.
Missioning, even with a pimpfit ship (which since the Nado is more of a liability than a benefit) and playing your cards right on LP (Though you can get a little more if you just spammed SOE LP, cause there's always a need for SOE probes. they really need to add a competing brand)
You might be lucky to break 65mil/hr.
If you have a ship set up for a specific mission, and you place yourself in an area with several agents and can get that mission often. In my case, this mission is Angel Extravaganza, and its run with a Golem (back on that whole, pimpfit mach is a liability, T2 golem gets scanning ships in missions but they leave after scanning for deadspace mods and finding nothing worth the cost of the 6 nadoes sitting a jump away that my friend is warning me about)
I might make 75-80mil/hr.
After salvage/loot you might get an extra 10-15mil

Some chains of missions, with full salvage/loot however you get quite a bit more.
#1 I'm pointing to is the Enemies Abound mission chain, which if you blast though in a ship (I used my Golem for it, even before the bastion mod) its not unreasonable in the 1.25-2.5 hours you do the chain, to see a nice 175-225 mil from it. (adjusted depending on local prices for tags, I've managed to get almost 250% over Jita prices by sell-ordering some tags a couple regions over)

During my time in null however, running around with a 100% dps Abaddon, in the drone regions (read that as theres no loot to make it more worthwhile) I was easily getting 100mil/hr + occasional niceties from sentients. Hell I was getting about 50-60mil/hr with a Drake. If only if only I'da had a Nightmare out there.



Yes though they do need to nerf L4s a bit income wise. Changing that though won't fix the bots, and it won't make it all that much better to try and move into null for the little guy because the big guys still have too much force projection.
ALso they jsut need to fix the smaller anoms. There should be the ability for people in null to anom without having to use common nullbear-grade battleships or carriers. Make some incentive for everyone in null to be anoming in their panicfleet HACs and BCs
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Doomheim
#159 - 2014-02-13 09:50:46 UTC
TIL neutral renting alliances are in coalitions.

Honor is a fools prize. [I]Glory is of no use to the dead.[/I]

Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#160 - 2014-02-13 09:59:47 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
After salvage/loot you might get an extra 10-15mil

Some chains of missions, with full salvage/loot however you get quite a bit more.
So, here's your main problem: you salvage and loot. This has a tendency to massively reduce your income, especially if you do it fully.

It was fairly easy to get 75M/h four years ago, when the tools and mission manipulation abilities weren't nearly as good as they are today.