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Null sec what chance does the little guy have

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Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#561 - 2014-02-16 22:22:10 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
It all depends on how diplomatically inclined you are. This could change though if CCP fixes sov and nerfs highsec, it'd be easier for you then.

Why is this always the answer of some..."Nerf High sec".. How exactly would that change anything? How exactly has it changed anything in the past? Yes, High Sec has been nerfed over and over.... and little if anything has changed. High sec and null sec should be equal but separate experiences. I believe High Sec nerfs have gone too far as it is.

Diplomacy is only one tool that CFC has harnessed to good effect. Yes, they (CFC) can be treacherous but what alliance with ambition does not want strong friends or at least strong temporary NAPed allies?


Its nerf highsec because highsec is too good to the point it depopulated nullsec. CCP said they can't buff nullsec because it could destroy the economy hence the only option is to nerf highsec.

Diplomacy is where most groups fail hence people need to stop being antisocial autists and try making friends for a change.

This is a strawman argument.. we're supposed to believe that if high sec is nerfed yet more than the many times it has been nerfed in the past that the sun will shine on null sec and magically everyone will flock to deep space? It hasn't happened yet. Why is that...because they didn't nerf high sec enough? Hardly. That's the same flawed logic neo-communists use when debating that the only reason massive social programs haven't worked in the past is because we haven't taxed the rich enough or that because we're different people the outcome will be different..... it's baloney. Go ahead, buff null sec, nerf high sec ...again. The giant sucking sound you expect caused by the mad rush to deep space for profits is not going to happen.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#562 - 2014-02-16 22:36:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

So why have 80% of bots moved into high sec?

The numbers are all there. High sec is simply better for earning isk than null sov space.

This is an old argument and it's flawed. Your numbers do not say what you think they are saying. The only reason there were more botters in high sec is because they could control their losses easier while afk. (btw the numbers of botters anywhere in game is greatly reduced) The profit from mining in null sec still out shines anything in high sec.. but there are fewer people in null sec who care to mine. I know people who mined exclusively in null sec.. and they were very rich. I mined in null sec for the first years of my eve life and it was profitable beyond belief...but residence in null sec is not a done deal. ...no one should know this better than you.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2014-02-16 22:51:40 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So why have 80% of bots moved into high sec?

The numbers are all there. High sec is simply better for earning isk than null sov space.

This is an old argument and it's flawed. Your numbers do not say what you think they are saying. The only reason there were more botters in high sec is because they could control their losses easier while afk. (btw the numbers of botters anywhere in game is greatly reduced) The profit from mining in null sec still out shines anything in high sec.. but there are fewer people in null sec who care to mine. I know people who mined exclusively in null sec.. and they were very rich. I mined in null sec for the first years of my eve life and it was profitable beyond belief...but residence in null sec is not a done deal. ...no one should know this better than you.

It was a fanfest statment from CCP


...flawed how?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#564 - 2014-02-16 22:53:11 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So why have 80% of bots moved into high sec?

The numbers are all there. High sec is simply better for earning isk than null sov space.

This is an old argument and it's flawed. Your numbers do not say what you think they are saying. The only reason there were more botters in high sec is because they could control their losses easier while afk. (btw the numbers of botters anywhere in game is greatly reduced) The profit from mining in null sec still out shines anything in high sec.. but there are fewer people in null sec who care to mine. I know people who mined exclusively in null sec.. and they were very rich. I mined in null sec for the first years of my eve life and it was profitable beyond belief...but residence in null sec is not a done deal. ...no one should know this better than you.

It was a fanfest statment from CCP


...flawed how?


Because they disagree with it. Duh. Anything they disagree with has to be wrong somehow, why can't you people realize that?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#565 - 2014-02-16 23:20:34 UTC
I'd like to point out that the title of the thread is "Null sec what chance does the little guy have," and that npc nullsec is an excellent area where the little guy thrives. Further, all npc nullsec is conveniently located near sov space, so if you ever want to **** on a nullbear or renter, the opportunity is readily available.
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#566 - 2014-02-17 00:11:27 UTC
Sarah Nalelmir wrote:
Its sad that CFC are allowed to own so much of Null. There should be a limit on what can be cvlaimed by a particular corp/alliance.

I would prefer to see an even spread of corps/alliances rather than just one big blob of colour.


You know why they're allowed that much space?

Because no one (can/will) take it from them.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#567 - 2014-02-17 00:32:32 UTC
A highsec nerf is needed because we can't buff null because of power creep.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#568 - 2014-02-17 00:35:26 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
]BoB is going to take over all of 0.0 and everyone will quit any second now.[/url]


Oh wait.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/20070827.png

Yeah.....Reality is a bit different than your bizarre memories.

Tippia wrote:
if by two you mean four, which is much the same as it has always been. Well, unless you mean actual alliances, in which case there are dozens, which is much the same as it has always been.


By two I mean two. Not four. The only major entities are CFC and N3.


The Russians?
Dronies?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#569 - 2014-02-17 01:00:05 UTC
Jill Chastot wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
]BoB is going to take over all of 0.0 and everyone will quit any second now.[/url]


Oh wait.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/20070827.png

Yeah.....Reality is a bit different than your bizarre memories.

Tippia wrote:
if by two you mean four, which is much the same as it has always been. Well, unless you mean actual alliances, in which case there are dozens, which is much the same as it has always been.


By two I mean two. Not four. The only major entities are CFC and N3.


The Russians?
Dronies?


NIP is the same thing as being blue, but you have scheduled pillow fights where the outcome is meaningless. So yeah, that whole Russian / Drone lands is right off the table.

What else do you have?
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#570 - 2014-02-17 01:23:29 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Can we nerf Local in HighSec?

Not for any logistical or "intel shouldn't be free" reasons but because in some systems it's just filled with retards and morons.

I keep an eye on Local but holy **** - it's filled with little ******* kids that wave their dicks at each other and it's just annoying.



Theres a reason Wh peeps hate HS, this being one

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#571 - 2014-02-17 02:11:27 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So why have 80% of bots moved into high sec?

The numbers are all there. High sec is simply better for earning isk than null sov space.

This is an old argument and it's flawed. Your numbers do not say what you think they are saying. The only reason there were more botters in high sec is because they could control their losses easier while afk. (btw the numbers of botters anywhere in game is greatly reduced) The profit from mining in null sec still out shines anything in high sec.. but there are fewer people in null sec who care to mine. I know people who mined exclusively in null sec.. and they were very rich. I mined in null sec for the first years of my eve life and it was profitable beyond belief...but residence in null sec is not a done deal. ...no one should know this better than you.

Its also likely statistically flawed. The likely reason that most bots CCP has found are in and around Jita is because of population density and player reporting. Its more likely that bots in and around Jita would be noticed and reported.

Its also likely that null sec bots, even when they're noticed are not reported because the likelihood that bots are blue and blues won't report other blues is very high. Additionally null sec bots are programmed to warp to POS or station when non-blues enter local so its more likely that null sec botting will not be observed by neutrals at all.

The main argument against nerfing highsec to fix null is that it would equate to a buff of null sec. Isk would become more valuable. And of course it doesn't address the main issue, timers, aggression emails and power projection.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#572 - 2014-02-17 03:44:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


The main argument against nerfing highsec to fix null is that it would equate to a buff of null sec. Isk would become more valuable. And of course it doesn't address the main issue, timers, aggression emails and power projection.



I dunno, with the price jumps I've seen since even I've started playing, they could take a few steps to make Isk more valuable (my first drake was only 14mil and my first raven was only 75mil).

But really, so many people just focus on the income from ratting/anoms (like they're the ONLY form of income for null)
Noone ever brings up the PI, Moon goo, and heavens forbid, the mining (yes, MINING - BTW would totally love to see an ORE Dread miner, make mining REALLY worthwhile, but thats another thread) All people whine about are that they made it so theres only 2-3 worthwhile anoms per system. The anom nerf only really hit casual renters hard. Just remember WH people never get bounties, they have to haul for ALL their income.

Before we start messing with timers, and killing capital jump range, and other things.
1 thought, make it so players can't restrict access to outposts (like at all). Stationgames in null are always so 1 sided, and theres no such thing as a real nullsec market.

If I knew that there was no way for people to stop me (other than catching and shooting me, which I have no complaint for). I'd love to sneak down to null from time to time and sell some stuff. Would be a great way for sneaky people to make a bit of money, and give people more opportunity to gank transports that aren't in highsec. But alas I can't because most of null is inaccessable to me. I could get everyone to blue me, but now we're getting silly.

Perhaps buff POS manufacturing to a point where its actually viable is another option. Though I've always been one point towards POS revamps. Everyone would whine about a POS revamp though if they just changed it overnight and some issues came up. (My suggestion is they just build a new POS system along side the current one. Players would be able to start building the new ones, and gradually phase out the older POSes. But they are too focused on their ship balancing right now. We'll think about that again in about 2 years)



I dunno. I'm not part of the sov problem myself. I'm the quintessential "little guy" here. Theres plenty of systems out there that I could grab some nerds and go and take for ourselves, even from CFC or anyone else, probably without much trouble. (even with the messages that itll send the enemy commanders). Probably wouldn't even have problems with 300 man blobs coming through.

But there's no real reason for me to go to null other than the "prestige" of holding SOV somewhere. And for wanting to take and hold some space for ourselves, WH space is much easier and safer.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#573 - 2014-02-17 03:45:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So why have 80% of bots moved into high sec?

The numbers are all there. High sec is simply better for earning isk than null sov space.

This is an old argument and it's flawed. Your numbers do not say what you think they are saying. The only reason there were more botters in high sec is because they could control their losses easier while afk. (btw the numbers of botters anywhere in game is greatly reduced) The profit from mining in null sec still out shines anything in high sec.. but there are fewer people in null sec who care to mine. I know people who mined exclusively in null sec.. and they were very rich. I mined in null sec for the first years of my eve life and it was profitable beyond belief...but residence in null sec is not a done deal. ...no one should know this better than you.

Its also likely statistically flawed. The likely reason that most bots CCP has found are in and around Jita is because of population density and player reporting. Its more likely that bots in and around Jita would be noticed and reported.

Its also likely that null sec bots, even when they're noticed are not reported because the likelihood that bots are blue and blues won't report other blues is very high. Additionally null sec bots are programmed to warp to POS or station when non-blues enter local so its more likely that null sec botting will not be observed by neutrals at all.

The main argument against nerfing highsec to fix null is that it would equate to a buff of null sec. Isk would become more valuable. And of course it doesn't address the main issue, timers, aggression emails and power projection.


Wait CCP numbers are statistically flawed and wrong but, according to you they weren't wrong when they nerfed null bounties so how are they wrong about bots being mostly in highsec? I guess CCP is only wrong when they disagree with your world view. (Not when you catch them back peddling or contradicting their economist though.)

Further proof you and the rest of the pro-highsec people should be ignored.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2014-02-17 05:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
La Nariz wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So why have 80% of bots moved into high sec?

The numbers are all there. High sec is simply better for earning isk than null sov space.

This is an old argument and it's flawed. Your numbers do not say what you think they are saying. The only reason there were more botters in high sec is because they could control their losses easier while afk. (btw the numbers of botters anywhere in game is greatly reduced) The profit from mining in null sec still out shines anything in high sec.. but there are fewer people in null sec who care to mine. I know people who mined exclusively in null sec.. and they were very rich. I mined in null sec for the first years of my eve life and it was profitable beyond belief...but residence in null sec is not a done deal. ...no one should know this better than you.

Its also likely statistically flawed. The likely reason that most bots CCP has found are in and around Jita is because of population density and player reporting. Its more likely that bots in and around Jita would be noticed and reported.

Its also likely that null sec bots, even when they're noticed are not reported because the likelihood that bots are blue and blues won't report other blues is very high. Additionally null sec bots are programmed to warp to POS or station when non-blues enter local so its more likely that null sec botting will not be observed by neutrals at all.

The main argument against nerfing highsec to fix null is that it would equate to a buff of null sec. Isk would become more valuable. And of course it doesn't address the main issue, timers, aggression emails and power projection.


Wait CCP numbers are statistically flawed and wrong but, according to you they weren't wrong when they nerfed null bounties so how are they wrong about bots being mostly in highsec? I guess CCP is only wrong when they disagree with your world view. (Not when you catch them back peddling or contradicting their economist though.)

Further proof you and the rest of the pro-highsec people should be ignored.

They're wrong because they're not omnipotent and know where every bot in EVE is. Like I said, bots will be reported more often in high density space and high sec. They will be rarely reported in null because in null they operate on a warp to POS / Station as soon as a nuet or red enters system and blues will not usually report their own blue botters. In fact I have heard that alliance directors in the past advising not to report blues as botters and I've heard that in Goonswarm you're likely to not be appreciated if you report blue botters.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#575 - 2014-02-17 07:01:01 UTC
Using ad hominem attacks non-shocker. Although a bit on the uncreative side. You guys are losing your touch.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#576 - 2014-02-17 07:04:55 UTC
It's not an ad hominem when your reputation with respect to a topic is relevant to what you are discussing.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#577 - 2014-02-17 07:50:54 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:


But really, so many people just focus on the income from ratting/anoms (like they're the ONLY form of income for null)
Noone ever brings up the PI, Moon goo, and heavens forbid, the mining (yes, MINING - BTW would totally love to see an ORE Dread miner, make mining REALLY worthwhile, but thats another thread) All people whine about are that they made it so theres only 2-3 worthwhile anoms per system. The anom nerf only really hit casual renters hard. Just remember WH people never get bounties, they have to haul for ALL their income.



Its because one player can empty the sugar in a system (deds, miniprofs), pretty easily, so the SOV system where you hold some space kinda breaks down a bit against the military power required to hold it (ie time zone concentrated, all in the same place kinda people), and also the notion of owned space tends to require you respect the space of like holders (allied corps etc) around you and not take all their rare content.

I also hold a moon - 13m per day, and I also PI - my planets are amenable to a low effort 4 planet system - 3 extracts and 1 factory planet, which is worth 13m per day. If I do more PI across more characters I start inventing logistics issues which rapidly brings the hourly rate back down to ratting.

Net result, is that I get quite a bit of time for ratting, and if I concentrated more people in my system, then I'd pretty much have to rat a hell of a lot. There is of course also the side issue that if I don't rat, then my entrapment arrays get turned off too.

Mining. meh, ore.cerlestes.de tells me a can of ark is worth only a little bit more than a can of kernite right now, and the efficiency of rorq boosting etc have to weighed against it being in a hold, circa 15 jumps into null, and being regularly interrupted, (and that my system doesn't spawn ark or bistot naturally either). 2 miners has no hope of beating watching over 2 ishtars imo.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#578 - 2014-02-17 08:52:24 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Noone ever brings up the PI


PI is decently balanced across all types of space.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#579 - 2014-02-17 08:55:08 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Using ad hominem attacks non-shocker. Although a bit on the uncreative side. You guys are losing your touch.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to write you a thesis.
Well that's not true, I do have the time.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#580 - 2014-02-17 11:11:27 UTC
So at the end of 30 pages it seems that everyone agrees that SovNull is fine for the big guys and the little guys. I mean seriously, read through this thread and all I see is bickering, whining, and general horseshit.

It's really no wonder CCP doesn't want to work on this. The players involved can not compromise, reason with each other, or post anything even remotely constructive without resorting to attacks and chest beating.

Don't get me wrong. It has been entertaining but literally nothing useful has been gained from any of the last 30 pages.

Let's see what you all can do with the next 30 pages.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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