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Null sec what chance does the little guy have

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#301 - 2014-02-14 17:29:29 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


Jenn's argument is basically that if the relative economic incentives were higher (for instance by nerfing highsec), a large number of players who never previously played in null, would start playing in null.


There goes that tendency to oversimplify I mentioned. Lots of high sec posters seem to have that tendency because they jump to the conclusion that any balance discussion is some kind of conspiracy to force them out of high sec.

I have forever said I'm against anyone being forced to do anything in a video game. But high sec pve being too good as it is blunts some of the natural forces that would entice the people already so inclined to risk things outside of high sec (not just to null sec either).

It (high sec being too lucrative to anyone with a spaceship and guns) is not the only factor that keeps high sec stuffed with characters and the other 3 security bands (low, null, WHs) so low population wise, but it is a factor.

---

And the issue of relative rewards is another issue all together. The reason why buffing null (even with LP as Kimmi Chan suggests) doesn't work is because above a certain point, it' doesn't matter,

As i said, I replied to Infinity Ziona once that you could make more than enough in high sec to plex 10 accounts and have isk left over. Since you can do that, it wouldn't matter if you could make 200 mil an hour in null anoms or 600 mil an hour in fw lvl 4s (which you can under the right circumstances). While the more adventurous and easily bored of us will go where the 'best' isk is, most people go where "enough" isk is.

(Same as real life, lots of people will tell you "i'd rather be comfortable than rich")

It's here that the pve imbalance matches the industry imbalance. Sure, we could spend trillions of isk on null sec infrastructure that will just get taken away so we could build in null sec. Or we could just buy it in jita and ship it down or build it yourself in FREE high sec slots that can never be taken away as long and the server is up.

Sure we could make 20 bil a month ninja'ing Goon plexes while goons are gone, or we can make 10 bil a month (more than we need) doing Sister's of EVE missions in the safety of high sec in a tech2 fit marauder no one wants to gank.

As long as things are so easy and relatively safe in high sec while at the same time being "just profitable enough" the imbalances that contribute to the current state of null (and low) will persist.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#302 - 2014-02-14 17:29:40 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

To be fair, sov mechanics are stacked against any smaller independent entity.

I would love, when they do balance sov, to have a use it or easily lose it system. For example, if you don't use a system you get no RF timers on your IHUB's & Stations, thereby enabling the system to fall from a single attack.

The tricky part is defining system "use". We have 2 indexes that show ratting and mining activity, and could easily form a basis for this new mechanic. However, these are very limited, as you can use a system for much, much more than that ratting and mining: Industry, Logistics, PvP, PI, S&I, and more.


Yeah no timers is a bad thing because it means we can steamroll half the galaxy over night especially because of the nullsec depopulation being caused by highsec. If anything your idea would further encourage renting because it would mean we have to stuff renters in every system.

The best idea I've seen is nerfing highsec and changing sov to be based on multiple objectives so you have to split forces. However I haven't seen a good idea that does the second part of that well.


Did you miss the qualifier: If you don't use a system you get no RF timers on your IHUB's & Stations, thereby enabling the system to fall from a single attack.

I fully support timers on systems you are using. I fully support the CFC owning all of nullsec if they can take it. I don't support easily holding onto it unless they use it.

Also, Marlona sky had a very interesting idea to curb power projection in EvE, something that is truly needed. Read it, as it is a good article.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#303 - 2014-02-14 17:32:29 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Also, Marlona sky had a very interesting idea to curb power projection in EvE, something that is truly needed. Read it, as it is a good article.

Actually that's a horrible idea. Marlona is just mad that they lost the war.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#304 - 2014-02-14 17:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
La Nariz wrote:
I won't discuss anything with you until you can prove you can discuss things honestly and that your opinion can be changed by fact/data.


At the outset of the Nerf HighSec thread, I was defending the status quo. Once the data was supplied to me and I endeavored to gather my own data, my view on the matter changed.

I've seen no data to support a claim that NullSec residents want HighSec residents to come to Null.
I've seen no data to suggest that a lack of fun is the barrier to people moving from HighSec.

Honestly, this kind of data would require a survey of some kind as I don't think it can be measured quantitatively.

What I have seen in thread after thread after thread is the NullSec residents claiming an imbalance. supporting this claim with data, and asking for it to be balanced again. What has yet to be fully discussed is the means for striking that balance because the threads on these topics go all trolly and end up locked because of people spewing crap supported by nothing.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-02-14 17:36:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lots of high sec posters


Stopped reading here.

It seems that anybody who disagrees with you automagically lives in high sec. Well, I live in nullsec, so there goes that.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#306 - 2014-02-14 17:38:01 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Also, Marlona sky had a very interesting idea to curb power projection in EvE, something that is truly needed. Read it, as it is a good article.

Actually that's a horrible idea. Marlona is just mad that they lost the war.


There are currently no drawbacks to teleportation in EvE, and this is something that should exist. To be honest, I really don't care about the movement of capitals via teleportation, but I very much think bridging needs to have some limits similar to Marlona's suggestion.

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#307 - 2014-02-14 17:40:55 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Also, Marlona sky had a very interesting idea to curb power projection in EvE, something that is truly needed. Read it, as it is a good article.

Actually that's a horrible idea. Marlona is just mad that they lost the war.


There are currently no drawbacks to teleportation in EvE, and this is something that should exist. To be honest, I really don't care about the movement of capitals via teleportation, but I very much think bridging needs to have some limits similar to Marlona's suggestion.


Goons would be forced to actually strategically position and defend borders, so it's a bad idea.

It would give new alliances a fighting chance.

It would be AWFUL for goons - they will never support it.

The current status quo of defending and attacking anything from anywhere benefits them far too much for them to ever want that changed.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#308 - 2014-02-14 17:41:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


You know? The last couple awoxes I have pulled off, it was the same thing. No acknowledging the superior position of the other player, just vitriol and trying to bullshit me that a 5,000 man merc alliance will hound me until the end of my days.


My middle school football coach once said that people talk smack after you beat them because lashing it is all the powerless can do.

He recounted how in high school his coach forbid the team from talking trash (anytime, but especially when the team was winning) and that the only thing they were allowed to do was point at the scoreboard lol. My coach smiled as he recalled how many fist fights (and game wins) that policy resulted in, because what was even worse to the losing team than losing was the fact that they couldn't get a rise out of my coaches team lol.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#309 - 2014-02-14 17:42:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Vast swathes have fallen to the mighty Brothers of Tangra. What menace will this space empire pose to the galaxy, what content will come from this behemoth, what stories will the BBC report in the future.

I inquired of their leader, but all he had to say was 01110010001111010100100111011001001000100....
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#310 - 2014-02-14 17:43:14 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lots of high sec posters


Stopped reading here.

It seems that anybody who disagrees with you automagically lives in high sec. Well, I live in nullsec, so there goes that.


Where you live is irrelevant. You can take the rat out of the hood but they's still a hoodrat.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#311 - 2014-02-14 17:43:37 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
It would be AWFUL for goons - they will never support it.

The current status quo of defending and attacking anything from anywhere benefits them far too much for them to ever want that changed.


You mean like Goons were so opposed to tech being fixed? Oh, wait, they were the loudest proponents of fixing it.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#312 - 2014-02-14 17:43:45 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
It would be AWFUL for goons - they will never support it.

The current status quo of defending and attacking anything from anywhere benefits them far too much for them to ever want that changed.

You're talking about a coalition that is willing to grind sov in entire regions using stealth bombers. What makes you think we wouldn't be willing to take a few gates to get a fight?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#313 - 2014-02-14 17:44:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lots of high sec posters


Stopped reading here.

It seems that anybody who disagrees with you automagically lives in high sec. Well, I live in nullsec, so there goes that.


Where you live is irrelevant. You can take the rat out of the hood but they's still a hoodrat.


That proves my point. I live in nullsec - but because I disagree with you, I am a "highsec poster."

Roll
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2014-02-14 17:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Did you miss the qualifier: If you don't use a system you get no RF timers on your IHUB's & Stations, thereby enabling the system to fall from a single attack.

I fully support timers on systems you are using. I fully support the CFC owning all of nullsec if they can take it. I don't support easily holding onto it unless they use it.

Also, Marlona sky had a very interesting idea to curb power projection in EvE, something that is truly needed. Read it, as it is a good article.


I did not miss the qualifier I showed you that it was terrible because it means we pack even more renters into nullsec. That renter space will not be vulnerable to a small group because its now our income alliance and when you mess with that you get a 1000 man fleet headed to you.

Making it worth living in over highsec, by nerfing highsec, would facilitate its use and further make the timer idea bad.

E: The power projection thing is an issue but, inconveniencing people or making the solution to the change be "more alts," isn't a good change.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#315 - 2014-02-14 17:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
admiral root wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
It would be AWFUL for goons - they will never support it.

The current status quo of defending and attacking anything from anywhere benefits them far too much for them to ever want that changed.


You mean like Goons were so opposed to tech being fixed? Oh, wait, they were the loudest proponents of fixing it.


A change like this would make the tech nerf look like childs play.

Also, the tech nerf didn't threaten their entire infrastructure. It only threatened some income.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2014-02-14 17:47:16 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
It would be AWFUL for goons - they will never support it.

The current status quo of defending and attacking anything from anywhere benefits them far too much for them to ever want that changed.


You mean like Goons were so opposed to tech being fixed? Oh, wait, they were the loudest proponents of fixing it.


A change like this would make the tech nerf look like childs play.

Also, the tech nerf didn't threaten their entire infrastructure. It only threatened some income.

You have no idea just how much our tech empire was worth (it was a staggering amount of isk). If you don't know what you are talking about you should probably just stop.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise

Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2014-02-14 17:47:44 UTC
If it wasn't so quick and easy to travel across 6 or more regions to blob the only non-blues left in nullsec, then maybe, just maybe you might not end up setting everyone within 40-50 jumps blue.



Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#318 - 2014-02-14 17:48:15 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


Goons would be forced to actually strategically position and defend borders, so it's a bad idea.


What stands out is the lack of understanding human nature you have. It wouldn't force goons to defend borders, it would encourage goons to fund "border protection alts" for their members to log in whenever something happens because a computer can run more than 1 client at a time lol.

It would further encourage goons to make defense fleet participation a part of rental agreements and it would encourage EVEN MORE BLUES because friends don't invade borders anyways.

Marlona has never demonstrated an understanding of Malcanis' law. To be fair, neither has CCP. Marlona's ideas would enrich goons.

Again you are letting prejudice could judgement and damp reason.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#319 - 2014-02-14 17:49:37 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
It would be AWFUL for goons - they will never support it.

The current status quo of defending and attacking anything from anywhere benefits them far too much for them to ever want that changed.


You mean like Goons were so opposed to tech being fixed? Oh, wait, they were the loudest proponents of fixing it.


A change like this would make the tech nerf look like childs play.

Also, the tech nerf didn't threaten their entire infrastructure. It only threatened some income.


I'd hardly describe pre-fixed tech income as "some", I'd lean toward "huge" or "massive". Regardless of the size of the change, nullsec groups are frequently seen lobbying CCP to fix things that are bad for the game, even though the changes often hurt those same groups.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#320 - 2014-02-14 17:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Pinky Hops wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lots of high sec posters


Stopped reading here.

It seems that anybody who disagrees with you automagically lives in high sec. Well, I live in nullsec, so there goes that.


Where you live is irrelevant. You can take the rat out of the hood but they's still a hoodrat.


That proves my point. I live in nullsec - but because I disagree with you post in defense of the high sec slanted imbalance without even understanding it, I am a "highsec poster."

Roll


Fixed.