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[Rubicon 1.1] Capital Turret Tracking Changes in Conjunction with Heat Iteration

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Bailian Moxtain
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#141 - 2014-01-16 23:12:19 UTC
last time i used my titan on the field was in may 2013, Im quite happy where this is going!
gr ant
Perkone
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-01-16 23:12:43 UTC
hitting quote instead of edit is pro
Buys The Things
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2014-01-16 23:14:34 UTC
Is it possible to somehow opt out from updates, and just keep playing the game as it is now?
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#144 - 2014-01-16 23:16:29 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
I would like to remind everyone to please stay constructive. It is of course valid to ask for the reasons of a change, nothing wrong with that! Constructive feedback is always welcome.




Constructive criticism: Virtually everyone posting here thinks this change is a bad idea and not needed; therefore, why make the change? Don't we essentially pay you guys for a game? Why do something a huge major of your paying customers seem to not want?

#Constructive-Criticism
Citrute
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2014-01-16 23:17:37 UTC
I expect to see plenty of jetcanned, burnt out tracking computers next to my dread. v0v

Not sure why there are so many tears. It's not like tracking computers are much more expensive or larger than ammo.
Kais Fiddler
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-01-16 23:27:59 UTC
Thanks for the armor tanking dread buff CCP.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#147 - 2014-01-16 23:35:25 UTC
Citrute wrote:
I expect to see plenty of jetcanned, burnt out tracking computers next to my dread. v0v

Not sure why there are so many tears. It's not like tracking computers are much more expensive or larger than ammo.


If the intention is to dump fitted modules and refit them with a mobile depot rather than repair them with nanite paste - I fear that it could eventually be classified as a pseudo-exploit, and patched out in one way or another.

EG. The slot itself gets damaged, rather than the module. There's all sorts of nasty things that could be done to prevent this sort of mechanic-evasive behavior.
Citrute
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2014-01-16 23:45:16 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
If the intention is to dump fitted modules and refit them with a mobile depot rather than repair them with nanite paste - I fear that it could eventually be classified as a pseudo-exploit, and patched out in one way or another.

EG. The slot itself gets damaged, rather than the module. There's all sorts of nasty things that could be done to prevent this sort of mechanic-evasive behavior.



I intend to refit them off a carrier, mobile depots have too few hp to be reliable place to refit. You also cant repair a burnt out module with paste, inconvenient for those that live in wormholes. Carrying more tracking computers also implies less cap sticks for injector refit v0v

Refitting isn't a new concept nor is it an exploit.
Kesthely
Mestana
#149 - 2014-01-16 23:45:37 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
You all new this was coming...

Stealth Buff to Phoenix!


Actually theres an even bigger stealth nerf to the phoenix as well, with the TP reduced by 10% in effectiveness, that means that missiles against a similar size target on average have 5% less damage projection. Against smaller targets the damage projection gets much much worse.

But no worries, you can also overheat your target painter, to get your damage up slightly again... You do realise ofcourse that Capital guns get an even better bonus from target painters then Capital missiles do in comparison....
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#150 - 2014-01-16 23:47:12 UTC
I made some graphs to demonstrate the effect of a 5% tracking nerf.

The first demonstrates the effect of the tracking nerf on chance to hit. The second demonstrates the effect of the nerf on expected dps, which is slightly different than the effect on chance to hit because :ccp:. The third shows the ratio of expected damage after the nerf to expected damage before the nerf. All three graphs assume that everything other than tracking is remaining unchanged--i.e., you are in the exact same ship, exact same fit, exact same skills, exact same target, exact same positions (optimal and falloff), etc. etc..

In the worst-case scenario, when the target's transversal is approximately 3.3x your tracking, you lose about 8.5% damage. However at that point you're only doing (pre-nerf) about 8% of your paper DPS anyway, so you should probably try to fix that. In more realistic cases the 5% tracking nerf results in a less-than-5% loss in damage, because of the way the damage formula works.

TL;DR: 5% tracking nerf is not nearly as big a deal as you think it is.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2014-01-16 23:48:01 UTC
Citrute wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
If the intention is to dump fitted modules and refit them with a mobile depot rather than repair them with nanite paste - I fear that it could eventually be classified as a pseudo-exploit, and patched out in one way or another.

EG. The slot itself gets damaged, rather than the module. There's all sorts of nasty things that could be done to prevent this sort of mechanic-evasive behavior.



I intend to refit them off a carrier, mobile depots have too few hp to be reliable place to refit. You also cant repair a burnt out module with paste, inconvenient for those that live in wormholes. Carrying more tracking computers also implies less cap sticks for injector refit v0v

Refitting isn't a new concept nor is it an exploit.


So the whole thing is justified by people fighting by continuously refitting modules?

I suppose that's valid, in a way.

Just seems a bit ugly to me. Carry on.
Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#152 - 2014-01-16 23:51:58 UTC
Rall Mekin wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
I would like to remind everyone to please stay constructive. It is of course valid to ask for the reasons of a change, nothing wrong with that! Constructive feedback is always welcome.




Constructive criticism: Virtually everyone posting here thinks this change is a bad idea and not needed; therefore, why make the change? Don't we essentially pay you guys for a game? Why do something a huge major of your paying customers seem to not want?

#Constructive-Criticism


Because what customers want isn't always in line with what's best for the game. One can only have faith (in CCP) this change is actually needed.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2014-01-17 00:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
To everyone saying "oh I'll just swap out my tracking computers when they get destroyed from overheat":

Have you not overheated before? Other modules take heat damage as well. Are you going to carry multiples of all your other midslot modules so that you can replace them as well whenever they get destroyed?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#154 - 2014-01-17 00:09:16 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Actually theres an even bigger stealth nerf to the phoenix as well, with the TP reduced by 10% in effectiveness, that means that missiles against a similar size target on average have 5% less damage projection. Against smaller targets the damage projection gets much much worse.

But no worries, you can also overheat your target painter, to get your damage up slightly again... You do realise ofcourse that Capital guns get an even better bonus from target painters then Capital missiles do in comparison....

You can always use a 'Nozh' Modified TP too!
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#155 - 2014-01-17 00:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Dreads blaping T3s is so a bad design. 5% reducing tracking is too small, 10% would be optimal.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#156 - 2014-01-17 00:20:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
To everyone saying "oh I'll just swap out my tracking computers when they get destroyed from overheat":

Have you not overheated before? Other modules take heat damage as well. Are you going to carry multiples of all your other midslot modules so that you can replace them as well whenever they get destroyed?


This is how I was getting confused. At some point you just end up carrying what, 5+ of the same fit around everywhere you go?

How? In your personal hauler companion? Or does every fleet now have a few jump freighters go with it with tons of modules so they stay overheated 24/7 and just constantly refit?

I don't know -- I know the metagame changes quickly but this all sounds startling unrealistic Roll
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#157 - 2014-01-17 00:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Aebe Amraen wrote:
I made some graphs to demonstrate the effect of a 5% tracking nerf.

The first demonstrates the effect of the tracking nerf on chance to hit. The second demonstrates the effect of the nerf on expected dps, which is slightly different than the effect on chance to hit because :ccp:. The third shows the ratio of expected damage after the nerf to expected damage before the nerf. All three graphs assume that everything other than tracking is remaining unchanged--i.e., you are in the exact same ship, exact same fit, exact same skills, exact same target, exact same positions (optimal and falloff), etc. etc..

In the worst-case scenario, when the target's transversal is approximately 3.3x your tracking, you lose about 8.5% damage. However at that point you're only doing (pre-nerf) about 8% of your paper DPS anyway, so you should probably try to fix that. In more realistic cases the 5% tracking nerf results in a less-than-5% loss in damage, because of the way the damage formula works.

TL;DR: 5% tracking nerf is not nearly as big a deal as you think it is.


Exactly this!
CCP the default nerf of the tracking should be 10%, but only on Dreads and trough a triage penalty. Guns shouldn't be touched.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#158 - 2014-01-17 00:23:47 UTC
This really screws things up with XL LR turrets, CCP.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mirel Dystoph
Perkone
Caldari State
#159 - 2014-01-17 00:25:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
To everyone saying "oh I'll just swap out my tracking computers when they get destroyed from overheat":

Have you not overheated before? Other modules take heat damage as well. Are you going to carry multiples of all your other midslot modules so that you can replace them as well whenever they get destroyed?

Uhm...yes?

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Faydhe
SECURITY SQUAD
#160 - 2014-01-17 00:43:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello again! This thread will cover the changes to the base tracking stats of all capital turrets alongside the expansion of heat to Tracking Computer modules.

I advise reading the Heat Iterations post before this one.

When expanding the ability to overheat to Tracking Computers, we investigated the effects that the change would have on different levels of turrets and the doctrines that use them. With the help of the CSM we have identified that the effects on Capital Turret tracking would be (slightly) negative so we're making a small tweak to them at the same time as the heat expansion.

In Rubicon 1.1 the tracking speed of all Capital Turrets will decrease by 5%.

This means tracking will be 5% down vs current TQ values when not overheating any TCs, about 2% down when overheating one T2 TC, and about 1.5% up when overheating two T2 TCs. Using higher meta TCs makes the crossover faster.

These changes will be on SISI very soon for you to try out for yourself, and as always we look forward to hearing your feedback.

Thanks!


Why nerf again? Only few % use owerload.