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[Rubicon 1.1] Capital Turret Tracking Changes in Conjunction with Heat Iteration

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Author
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#281 - 2014-01-17 18:55:55 UTC
Isbariya wrote:
While you're at it, care to buff the phoenix a bit or capital missles in general ?


I suspect the plan is to wait until the other dreads get rebalanced in general. Easier to just do them all at once instead of applying a half-assed fix right now and having to reevaluate it in a few months when the capital changes come about.

In any case, it's not an easy fix and should be considered carefully instead of something that's not thought through well.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#282 - 2014-01-17 18:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
So 3% more dps with two overheated TCs was too alarming to allow unchecked, yet 3.7% nerf to base DPS before TC overheat and requiring two overheated TCs just to mitigate that loss isn't a big deal.

Uh... okay.

Have fun dealing with refit lag in your next null battle.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#283 - 2014-01-17 19:09:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

I think after people try out these changes they'll find that their old uses for Dreadnaughts all continue to apply. There is no magical threshold that 5% tracking can cross to make Dreads useless. There's no hidden trap within the tracking formula that makes the turrets in the game act differently than an informed player should expect. This will simply be a small (generally less than 5%) reduction in average applied damage when not using heated TCs, and a small increase in average applied damage for the players who push the limits with their tactics and fittings.

If you could blap webbed players with your Moros before, you'll still be able to do it.
If you could farm sleeper escalations using supported dreads before, you'll still be able to do it.
If you could burn down a bounced supercarrier with your dread hotdrop before you'll still be able to do it.
If you could alpha an orbiting Archon with your Omegafleet Nags before you'll still be able to do it.
If you could hit those Omegafleet Nags with your titan guns before you'll still be able to do it.
If you could mine veldspar with your Revelation before you'll still be able to do it.

I think you will all find that this change results in pretty much the same gameplay as before, and only serves as a very slight reduction in total effectiveness compared to the status quo. If you discover differently on SISI or potentially later on TQ, let us know in a calm and reasoned manner and we'll always be very open to reevaluating these kinds of attributes.

Then why is it necessary? If we can do everything we can do now after the nerf, why bother nerfing the tracking? What I am hearing is "We are going to nerf this, but it won't really make a huge difference."

Give us a glimpse in to the thinking behind this. Are dreads tracking too well currently? Is there a worry that a 7% buff to tracking when overheating 2 TCs is too powerful and would cause massive tracking dread blobs to spread across New Eden? A worry tracking titans would come back? Essentially what I am asking you to do is make the case that this 5% change is going to make a worthwhile difference. For me, and I am going to assume for a lot of us who have voiced our opinion in this thread, this is a nerf to something that wasn't broken in the first place and a small buff wouldn't make it broken.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#284 - 2014-01-17 19:14:12 UTC
Aliventi wrote:

Then why is it necessary? If we can do everything we can do now after the nerf, why bother nerfing the tracking? What I am hearing is "We are going to nerf this, but it won't really make a huge difference."

Give us a glimpse in to the thinking behind this. Are dreads tracking too well currently? Is there a worry that a 7% buff to tracking when overheating 2 TCs is too powerful and would cause massive tracking dread blobs to spread across New Eden? A worry tracking titans would come back? Essentially what I am asking you to do is make the case that this 5% change is going to make a worthwhile difference. For me, and I am going to assume for a lot of us who have voiced our opinion in this thread, this is a nerf to something that wasn't broken in the first place and a small buff wouldn't make it broken.


Has me scratching my head too - might as well just leave them as they are.
Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#285 - 2014-01-17 19:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So in one day you've managed to nerf TP's and capital turrets. Your making bad decisions for all the wrong reasons. Your player base has told you what needs fixed, what needs looked at, and what doesn't need to be in the game at all. Yet you insist on adding unneeded and unwanted changes. Then you have the gaul to ask why your subscription base is dwindling?

You nerf the crap out of missiles, then a few expansions later nerf the missile boats, now it's the TP...another missile nerf.

You nerfed dreads a few expansions ago turning the Phoenix into an even more worthless heap. Now you nerf the rest of the dreads to bring the Phoenix back up to snuff but then nerf the TP at the same time effectively nerfing the Phoenix even more. Bad ideas are bad ideas CCP. These are all bad ideas. Fix what's broken and maybe you'll quit bleeding players from the game.


*Snip* Please refrain from spreading baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal



CCP isn't going to listen to want others have to say till it is too late to do anything about it. I have been fighting that same fight about them fixing what doesn't need to be versus what does need a fix. Unfortunately I think it will be when a big majority of the player base is gone, before it is clearly seen as a problem.

They build up and nerf the missile stuff so much, it isn't funny anymore. They don't want them to be PVE, but they kill their abilities as a whole in PVP. Yes, some actually have missile doctrines, but it is few and far between. Smartbombs shouldn't stop missiles, which would add a new element to things and just give the phoenix bonuses to structure bashing. Make it something that is a killer to objects that don't move.

Yet much like all the survey's I have filled out, I bet the important parts of this post will be ignored...... oh wait, they already have been.
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#286 - 2014-01-17 20:07:20 UTC
Attack on CCP personnel has been removed.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#287 - 2014-01-17 20:56:18 UTC
Agreed. If it won't make a huge difference, then why waste time doing it?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#288 - 2014-01-17 21:26:50 UTC
Tasha Saisima wrote:
Agreed. If it won't make a huge difference, then why waste time doing it?


On the subject of time "wasted", these changes to one base attribute (on just 6 items in this case) are extremely fast to implement and test. This did not take time away from any other feature designs.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#289 - 2014-01-17 21:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
CCP Fozzie -you are running out of low hanging fruit. As loud as this thread might be peeps are looking for a nullsec expansion as well as - let's call it clarification - with regards to caps and supercaps. I don't envy you those threads.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#290 - 2014-01-17 21:52:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tasha Saisima wrote:
Agreed. If it won't make a huge difference, then why waste time doing it?


On the subject of time "wasted", these changes to one base attribute (on just 6 items in this case) are extremely fast to implement and test. This did not take time away from any other feature designs.


fozz accoding to the onion blog you are all waisted all the timeBlink

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#291 - 2014-01-17 22:14:36 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Mr Hyde113
#292 - 2014-01-17 22:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Hyde113
CCP Fozzie wrote:

If you could blap webbed players with your Moros before, you'll still be able to do it.
If you could farm sleeper escalations using supported dreads before, you'll still be able to do it.
If you could burn down a bounced supercarrier with your dread hotdrop before you'll still be able to do it.
If you could alpha an orbiting Archon with your Omegafleet Nags before you'll still be able to do it.
If you could hit those Omegafleet Nags with your titan guns before you'll still be able to do it.
If you could mine veldspar with your Revelation before you'll still be able to do it.

I think you will all find that this change results in pretty much the same gameplay as before, and only serves as a very slight reduction in total effectiveness compared to the status quo. If you discover differently on SISI or potentially later on TQ, let us know in a calm and reasoned manner and we'll always be very open to reevaluating these kinds of attributes.



Then why bother at all? You're argument here counters itself. If a 5% nerf doesn't stop dreads from doing anything they currently do, then don't do it. I don't see any point in having even a 5% nerf to a ship that is expensive and puts itself at risk to fulfill its role.


And on the last bit about the Revelation...I hope this is your roundabout way of acknowledging that the Revelation is out-of-line compared to the Moros and Nag, and is in need of a re-do. Usually Laser boats have the advantage at mid range optimal, in between blasters and autos, but given the Rev's useless 10% cap usage bonus (which really should just be built into the guns somewhat) it is always surpassed by the Moros and Nag. graph

Also, the lack of any mention of the Phoenix means you're gonna help that poor poor ship as well?

Only positive thing I can say here is that you reversed the proposed change to TPs.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#293 - 2014-01-17 22:50:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tasha Saisima wrote:
Agreed. If it won't make a huge difference, then why waste time doing it?


On the subject of time "wasted", these changes to one base attribute (on just 6 items in this case) are extremely fast to implement and test. This did not take time away from any other feature designs.


are any of those feature designs ship balancing? Smile

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2014-01-17 23:17:19 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tasha Saisima wrote:
Agreed. If it won't make a huge difference, then why waste time doing it?


On the subject of time "wasted", these changes to one base attribute (on just 6 items in this case) are extremely fast to implement and test. This did not take time away from any other feature designs.


are any of those feature designs ship balancing? Smile


Or more importantly: a POS revamp?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Claud Tiberius
#295 - 2014-01-17 23:55:38 UTC
This sounds like a win for the Phoenix! Missiles ftw! :D

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.

Dropkick-Murphy
Doomheim
#296 - 2014-01-17 23:59:19 UTC
An effective nerf to drones, twice.

A fantasy nerf to Capital turrets, which won't really have any effect.

Guess which side of the Null divide this fall on?
iskflakes
#297 - 2014-01-18 00:16:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
That's exactly what this change is, a minor maintenance tweak. Making small, contained changes more rapidly is a very good method of balancing as you can fine tune attributes into the best possible state and watch the results without as many secondary effects. This change (as well as several of the other balance changes I announced yesterday) fall into that small contained iteration category.


This is a good way of making changes, but why is this done on some ships and not others which are more broken? Can we get a small, contained change to the phoenix or to titans perhaps? If not, do we need to wait until 2017?

-

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#298 - 2014-01-18 00:46:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tasha Saisima wrote:
Agreed. If it won't make a huge difference, then why waste time doing it?


On the subject of time "wasted", these changes to one base attribute (on just 6 items in this case) are extremely fast to implement and test. This did not take time away from any other feature designs.

Alrighty then no time was wasted, but if the change is so insignificant that it won't make a difference, why do it in the first place?

Imagine you get a call from your insurance agent, and he wants to sell you a new policy. You like the one you already have. He tells you it won't change a thing, but he'd really, really like you to change your policy. No reason given. Would you?

Probably not.

Also, while we're on the subject of easily tweaked base attributes, why don't we talk about explosion velocity. For the phoenix. You know, the mythological 4th dread rarely seen in nature? The problem with this change is that it is (1) completely unnecessary and (2) there are equally easy changes (see: explosion velocity for phoenix) which should be happening.
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#299 - 2014-01-18 00:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Fozzie wrote:

It appears there are many people who seem to believe that this 5% will somehow crush Dreadnaughts or significantly decrease their use. I disagree, but I also welcome everyone to test these changes for themselves when SISI is next updated. As proven many times before, we are always open to adjusting or canceling proposed changes based on good solid feedback.


For me the worrying thing is the trend of nerfing dreads. I have been on both sides of dread blapping in wormhole space and personally, i don't think dreads being able to hit sub caps is an issue. The problem is that you guys at CCP do have an issue with it, so i don't think it's going to stop here.

When you eventually nerf the tank on T3 (something i hope you don't do) are you going to nerf capital turrets to compensate again?

What we need in wormhole space is ways (new ships and mods) to combat people who use dreads to field a overwhelming home field advantage, not a blanket nerf that negatively effects every dread pilot in the game.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2014-01-18 00:57:37 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
With this change, the upcoming T3 nerf and the the lack of any substantial content being added to the game, i see 2014 being the year i stop playing EVE.

It's not a massive nerf but frankly, i'm tired of training up for something only for it to be nerfed again and again. For what i use it for, the moros has gone from being a awesome endgame ship to a complete ******* joke.



Taht is a very whine approach to the game. No nerf to ANy ship shoudl amke anyoen leave. Only babaies would do that.

LEarn that you train to what is NOT flavor of the monht. so when you get there. it WILl be flavor of the monht. WOrked for me for 7 years.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"