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[Rubicon 1.1] Capital Turret Tracking Changes in Conjunction with Heat Iteration

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#201 - 2014-01-17 11:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Khan Farshatok wrote:
except ccp also has a random generator that determines hits and misses based on tracking and velocity that cant be calculated *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Actually it totally can be calculated.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#202 - 2014-01-17 11:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Khan Farshatok wrote:
except ccp also has a random generator that determines hits and misses based on tracking and velocity that cant be calculated *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Actually it totally can be calculated.


"Randomness of damage

The damage from turrets always has a random factor in it, this is built into the game and can't be avoided. Under ideal conditions, when your hit chance is 100%, the damage done by your turrets will be inside an interval of 50% to 150% of your average damage (your target's resistance will reduce the damage done too). However, things are different when your hit chance decreases. Not only will you have a chance to miss your target, which means no damage done. But also, the damage interval will change as well. That interval is actually from 50% but only up to (50% + hit chance). So if your hit chance is 70%, not only will you miss a few shots, the shots that do hit are now in the damage interval of 50% to 120%. There are thus two simultaneous factors that reduce your damage when your chance to hit goes down. (This description has two tiny intentional errors in it that were used to help explain this concept more easily: the first error is that the damage interval is spread around what is known as base damage, the second error is that the percent interval only has 99 units, more details can be found in the second part below)."

To be fair its only tastes Little bit ironic. ;)
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#203 - 2014-01-17 12:04:17 UTC
Damage is a bit random, there is some "Cosmic" Randomness like playing Warhammer 40k.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2014-01-17 12:10:13 UTC
I don't AGREE with the change but at least I get my math right.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#205 - 2014-01-17 12:16:25 UTC
Average can be random to. ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2014-01-17 12:17:31 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
In this case it isn't. If we assume an infinite number of volleys, your DPS will be the same as is calculated.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#207 - 2014-01-17 12:25:14 UTC
And of course not assuming an infinite number of vollies, your average DPS could almost evenly go above as below this number.

It would actually be a perfectly even split if it weren't for the existence of wrecking shots, which give you a 1% change of hitting for 3 times your base volley damage, meaning that it's actually skewed in favor of you having higher average DPS rather than lower.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#208 - 2014-01-17 12:28:24 UTC
Which case? If we calculate plain tracking we sure use 100% or if you prefer 75% we can use that, but most battles dont have infinity volleys, so it can happen that you have some minor luck or not.

Sure its not Game Breaking, but we shouldnt whipe it under the carpet.

Facts are facts.
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2014-01-17 12:36:35 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterAl tt1
You do know there exist such things as TRACKING ENHANCERs ?

What happens:
Armor-fitted dread - more-or-less the same as it used to be.
Shield-tanked dread (yeah, sometimes Moros is shield) - pure nerf.

(I'm talking from the PoV of w-space application)
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#210 - 2014-01-17 12:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aebe Amraen
interesangt wrote:
Here`s more constructive critisism,

I`m pulling the plug on my cash subscriptions for this game with this expansion, and will freeplay untill the day you fix what is needed to be fixed.

sentry drones have turned in to THE gun, guns are semi op, and missiles are a load of crap.. currently every 0sec alliance is turning to sentry doctines which i load for obvious reasons.
And drones should never be the primary weapon system in a spacegame.

Congratulations on making drone and interceptor online.

You have failed mate! ( not you alone, but seeing what is coming i am in loss of words.)


You do know that when you play "free" CCP actually earns more money than when you subscribe, right? Because that means someone else is paying for you by buying PLEX, which is generally more expensive than a subscription.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#211 - 2014-01-17 12:37:46 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Which case? If we calculate plain tracking we sure use 100% or if you prefer 75% we can use that, but most battles dont have infinity volleys, so it can happen that you have some minor luck or not.

Sure its not Game Breaking, but we shouldnt whipe it under the carpet.

Facts are facts.

It's also possible to do 300% paper DPS during a battle.
It's also possible I could quantum teleport through my chair.
This is why we use averages. We give all scenarios weights by probability and add them together.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#212 - 2014-01-17 12:43:15 UTC
Seriously, don't argue mathematics with me unless you've got some actual numbers to back yourself up, or unless you want to be crushed.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#213 - 2014-01-17 12:48:14 UTC
I dunno why you think that i want to disaprove your calculations, they are right but there is some random factor for each volley, period, that was my whole point.
Rammix
TheMurk
#214 - 2014-01-17 12:53:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Key words: paper dps.

The game uses the exact same equations he's using to calculate the DPS. Meaning that the DPS in game will be, on average, the same as he's posted here.

In numbers - yes. But in effectiveness in practice - there are differences.
Example from "life": even "insignificant" difference between usual meta TCs and faction ones - in practice is pretty sensible, especially with several modules. So nerf of 5% per module is in practise more sensible than the subjective comparison of 5vs100, and it becomes even more sensible with multiple modules.
Both TCs and TPs are getting nerfed, so fits with mix of such modules are getting severely nerfed: you can overheat 3-5 modules simultaneously only for a very short period of time.

When you shoot at things having excessive tracking you won't really notice 5% change. But when you do the same on the edge of your tracking abilities any changes which are insignificant on paper - become very significant and sensible in practice.
You may argue that balancing shouldn't be taking edge cases seriously, but some playstyles - are popular edge cases, and ccp risk to destroy such playstyles. What for??
Also, in pvp players often come very close to the limits of ship and module stats. 5% changes - ARE serious.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#215 - 2014-01-17 12:56:59 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I dunno why you think that i want to disaprove your calculations, they are right but there is some random factor for each volley, period, that was my whole point.


Yes but average means that these variations have already been included into the final number.
And as long as you don't want to alpha something (Moroses doesn't have much alpha compared to their dps) the individual number of a hit is actually irrelevant.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#216 - 2014-01-17 12:58:00 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I dunno why you think that i want to disaprove your calculations, they are right but there is some random factor for each volley, period, that was my whole point.

Sure, each single volley, yes. But you cannot say anything about individual volleys at all then except that they'll be within a certain range.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#217 - 2014-01-17 13:03:35 UTC
Rammix wrote:

Both TCs and TPs are getting nerfed, so fits with mix of such modules are getting severely nerfed: you can overheat 3-5 modules simultaneously only for a very short period of time.


Tracking Computers and Target Painters have their base efficiency untouched, and they gain the ability to overheat. This is a up not a nerf.

Rammix wrote:
Also, in pvp players often come very close to the limits of ship and module stats. 5% changes - ARE serious.

Yeah say that to my +0.88 align time crow. That's around a 20% increase :D.
You capital pilots are able to blap things out of existence without any chance of landing rep on them and you're whining for a 5% nerf in tracking. Yet you are also given the ability to increase said tracking by 2% (from now, ~7% from base tracking post patch) when needed.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Rammix
TheMurk
#218 - 2014-01-17 13:04:13 UTC
And I want to add: we operate with endless numbers of hits only on paper. In practice, number of hits is limited and is relatively low. So out of 30 cycles you may happen to hit only 5 times even with 50% chance of hit.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#219 - 2014-01-17 13:06:10 UTC
Again i wasnt my Intention to disaprove you at any time, i just want to simply pointing out that there is some randomness.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#220 - 2014-01-17 13:07:08 UTC
Rammix wrote:

Both TCs and TPs are getting nerfed


Neither TCs or TPs are getting nerfed. We decided against the change to TP base strength and there was never a nerf to TCs in these changes so I don't know where you got that idea from.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie