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Two years later: Walking in Stations

First post
Author
Duran Veldspur
First Imperial Caldari Bank
#41 - 2013-12-06 12:22:08 UTC
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

They lost almost 1/3 of their players. IT was nto a few..w as enough that CCP had to lay off a large ammount of their workforce. IT was a clear statemernt.. focus on incarna and loose the whole game within a year.


"Focus on incarna" wasn't what caused the lay-offs. Poor management, unrealistic goals, making a games engine they didn't need (taking up content development time), releasing content that didn't work, terrible micro-transactions, removing current features that people liked and not delivering on what they said they were going to achieve is what caused lay offs. The dream of Walking in Stations had nothing to do with it.

When ever I see someone blame the WiS idea for CCP's problem, I see someone who is completely ignorant to what actually happened. Walking in stations, done well, would have been amazing. What CCP had planned to develope didn't lose them players. What they actually did, cost them players. That's a massive difference you are conveniently ignoring.



well said... so does anyone know if CCP is going to revisit walking in stations? or is it dead for good
Jassmin Joy
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#42 - 2013-12-06 12:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Cypherous wrote:
Baroness Vulna wrote:



Well CCP is going to lose alot more players if they just ignore avatars and walking in stations because there are a great many players (i know of) who want that to be part of the game they play.


Good riddence then :P

WIS was a terrible idea that we all told CCP would be terrible when they announced it in the first place, turns out it was terrible, hate to say i told you so CCP, so the project was scrapped, they used that experience for other things like dust, if you have ever walked around in the pre-game lobby you will notice it feels pretty much identical to CQ but with generic clone troopers

I for one will not miss CQ if it were to be removed completely as the only time i see it is when i reinstall and have to disable CQ because its the default option, there were a couple of minor cool features CCP said they wanted with WIS but seeing as the base product failed we wont ever see those interesting features :P

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

The player base wanted WiS, the problem with incarna was they didn't get it, instead they got one room which players that had well above the required rigs couldent run, and the alternative was a blurred screen instead of ship spinning, the problem with incarna was the lack of promised content, greed is good and $1000 e-jeans, so before you run your mouth you might want to understand what you're actually talking about.

for referance, watch hilmar talking at fanfest about how they were t working on wis, then the reaction of the crowd and his apparent confusion, we want wis not walking in one closed off room, that's the issue.
Sola Azor
Armada vi Vulnezia
#43 - 2013-12-06 12:44:43 UTC
I don't think the right people at CCP quite get it either. I think they are all so shell shocked from the complete failure of incarna that they are all afraid to even do WIS right.

All they need to do is build on it slowly, bit by bit, incorporate a little more WIS with each ship expansion. Where they would fail is if they do one giant expansion on WIS that is completely different than expectation, that would be the killer.

CCP needs to surprise us, add a little more WIS with each expansion and they will make alot of players happy. Just learn from past failure and dont just add on a new closed off room like a bathroom or something....lol that would not be progress.
The Legendary Soldier
Instant Reaction Holdings
#44 - 2013-12-06 12:53:23 UTC
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:
WASPY69 wrote:
CCP clearly said in a recent statement that EVE is, in fact a game about internet spaceships, and so therein lies the primary development focus.
So don't wait up at night expecting WIS to arrive anytime soon. And on your latter question, not to promote another game, but i believe Star Citizen will have said walking in stations, or at least in your ship hangar.


Yup but they did spend 4 years of development on it... so that was just a complete waste then?


Yes. Yes it was.

Need to place a high-sec POS? Premade corps for sale, or your corps standings boosted. Trading since January 2012. Many corps sold/boosted - see my thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63128&find=unread

Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#45 - 2013-12-06 13:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
Cypherous wrote:
turns out it was terrible


You appear to be referring to something that hasn't happened yet in past tense. I think perhaps your confused.

Duran Veldspur wrote:

well said... so does anyone know if CCP is going to revisit walking in stations? or is it dead for good


The official stance is that they currently have nothing planned. And seeing as they have a long term plan they are concentrating on we can assume (that unless that plan goes **** up like the last one) we won't see anything until we have working manufacturable star gates.
Wacktopia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-12-06 13:27:53 UTC
Hemi DarkStar wrote:
Highly unlikely they will make the same mistake twice.


The mistake with WIS was not necessarily WIS itself but the implementation combined with the NeX debacle.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2013-12-06 13:42:39 UTC
Baroness Vulna wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



The players did , whith their massive revotls, riots and demands that CCP scrapped the focus on incarna in favor of SPACE. CCP lost a LOT of costumers and only started gettign them back after they complied.

THey leaarned a lesson. Do not expect anything incarna related soon.



Well CCP is going to lose alot more players if they just ignore avatars and walking in stations because there are a great many players (i know of) who want that to be part of the game they play.

With competition coming, many will just go to the other games if CCP cant deliver. My point is, if one company can do a decent job with avatars and walking in station in BETA, why cant CCP do something decent for its customers who want walking in stations with their awesome internet spaceships?


Is this where I type "posting in a stealth Star Citizen is gonna kill EVE thread"? I get confused.

The problem here, Baroness, is that you don't understand the history of EVE online. Every year some game is supposed to kill EVE.

One of the last ones was Star Trek Online, a game that (like Star Citizen will) has walking in stations (and on planets and in ships) and that allows players to avoid any kind of pvp interaction at all. Despite all the "omg competiton is coming" prophecies from people, STO didn't even make a dent in EVE.

So you are not the 1st who has tried to use the "competition!" boogey man as leverage to get CCP to do something you want but that the community in general wants. You won't be the last at failing to make a dent in EVE either.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#48 - 2013-12-06 13:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lors Dornick
Plug in Baby wrote:
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:

Yup but they did spend 4 years of development on it... so that was just a complete waste then?


Of course not, it was just part of their development for WoD, a game which has the potential to make CCP even more money that Dust!

Exactly.

CCP was looking for ways to use as much as possible of their existing tools and resources to create new platforms (or streams of revenue to use biz speak).

One obvious way was to streamline their code to both be better and more up to date but also less EVE centric and more a generic game engine.

Which is what Carbon was and still is all about.

To get a better business case (or maybe because it actually sounds smart) they decided to start building the first ,or technically second, game using this new Carbon engine in parallel to recoding core elements EvE into it.

That new game (and new IP) was, and still is, World of Darkness.

And there's already been a lot of good stuff coming of Carbon even seen through the camera drones a dedicated space faring pod pilot. Because a lot of the core code in EvE was written by a very small team, on a very small budget and with a main goal to get something up and running before they lost their homes.

But to use Carbon for anything else than EvE, or rather rendering anything else than spaceships, they had to add a new rendering system that could handle avatars.

And that's when stuff went pear shaped.

There was, and is, several engines that can do that, but that would also mean buying the right to use that engine and grafting it into Carbon. So they decided to write their own.

Mainly because it was critical for WoD, but anyone could see that while not critical to EvE, it would be very very good to have.

In a perfect world it would have worked.

Take all the working stuff from EvE, add a new IP, recode stuff (that kind of worked but according to Devs having to work it makes could make "Baby Jesus Cry") and then add whatever new (and game independent from scratch) code they needed.

It would have meant that EvE would be better, more polished, less buggy and with shiny new features while at the same time adding a whole new game (and revenue stream) to CCP.

But it didn't, management felt invincible and decided to not only to do that (Carbon/WoD), but also to reuse their IP and server technology to pick up a new customer segment and add a console FPS to the mix.

And they ran out of cash and had to take some quite drastic decisions.

Why they decided to keep pushing for Dust and turn WoD down to a slow simmer is a completely different issue.

So back to WiS and Avatars.

With the Avatar part of Carbon needing lots of more development to be of any relevant use in EvE and WoD development on slow simmer with no release date there was no longer any resources available.

There was an attempt by CCP to find a good enough case for Avatars in EvE to continue pushing without being able to share the load with WoD. But such a case would have to be based on a solid addition to game play.

But that prototype was shot down by the management. Not because it was bad, but because it wasn't good enough.

Was all the resources poured into to Avatars wasted? Probably not, since it's still in development in Georgia.

Will there ever be any Avatar game play in EvE? Probably, but not until either the WoD code and tools has been developed and matured enough so that it can be integrated back into EvE or that someone comes up with a serious brainwave and presents a better idea for Avatar based game play in Eve than the one that was shot down.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2013-12-06 13:47:06 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Captain IQ wrote:
EVE is dying
I can't quite communicate the feel I get from seeing posts saying this after having spent nearly a decade seeing posts saying this.


Some people can't separate (in their minds) themselves from everyone else, so they think that if THEY are starting to dislike something, every one else is too, therefore EVE must be dying....when in fact, EVE is only dying for THEM.

Funnily enough, in the General Discussion forum, people who can't understand the concept described above tend to have the word "Captain" in their screen names Twisted
NosEspEYE
swordFightingaFart
#50 - 2013-12-06 13:49:18 UTC
I want to walk around more and punch people in a station, does that count?
alexi turov
Neutronium Alchemist's
#51 - 2013-12-06 13:51:18 UTC
While WIS would have been a nice thing to have, the missing EVA content piqued my interest.
The potential to move around the EVE universe in space suits, as in Shattered Horizon, would have been cool.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=161511
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
WE FORM BL0B
#52 - 2013-12-06 13:54:04 UTC
I want to believe.
Tear Dancer
Armada vi Vulnezia
#53 - 2013-12-06 13:55:05 UTC
Walking in stations and exotic dancing in stations now that would be fun P

Give me more isk boys! (and girls)

Pi$$ed off Exotic Dancer

I blow up Miners for fun and Dance for entertainment.

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
WE FORM BL0B
#54 - 2013-12-06 14:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Ramona McCandless wrote:

CCP: Walk around in stations, pose, ERP, itll be fun and a nice test for WoD

Forums: Wah, complain, grissle, Saceship gaem, GrrCCP, ruiners, waste of time, Moar ships, less barbie, why you no listen CCP to customers

CCP: Ok


*Two Years Later *

CCP: Here, more ships, do more, modules, tactics, maybe even ares

Forums: OMG GrrCCP BLINK, ruiners, waste of time, where WiS??

CCP: sigh


It'll be exactly the same with this new stargate/space idea that everyone loves (at the moment), you watch.

Youuuu just waaaatch.

"No one wanted new stargates" - GD 2015

*hold hands up like a gypsy curse*
Rebel Witch
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#55 - 2013-12-06 14:24:24 UTC
I remember being so enthusiastic in 2011 just before Incarna was rolled out. Then i joined in the collective gasp of shock when we saw just what CCP had done for 4 years of work and waiting. One of the biggest let downs in MMO history imho. Just because i play alot of them and looked so forward to ambulation.

LIke others i still think there is hope for some kind of Avatar based expansion in EVE but for now I am loving what CCP is doing with the rest of the game, keep up the good work guys!!
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-12-06 14:32:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

The players did , whith their massive revotls, riots and demands that CCP scrapped the focus on incarna in favor of SPACE. CCP lost a LOT of costumers and only started gettign them back after they complied.

THey leaarned a lesson. Do not expect anything incarna related soon.

I really hate revisionist history.

The statue shooting and unsubscribing was over the NeX, Pay-to-Win, and because Incarna didn't deliver enough avatar gameplay for the time it took to develop it.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2013-12-06 14:33:29 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:

CCP: Walk around in stations, pose, ERP, itll be fun and a nice test for WoD

Forums: Wah, complain, grissle, Saceship gaem, GrrCCP, ruiners, waste of time, Moar ships, less barbie, why you no listen CCP to customers

CCP: Ok


*Two Years Later *

CCP: Here, more ships, do more, modules, tactics, maybe even ares

Forums: OMG GrrCCP BLINK, ruiners, waste of time, where WiS??

CCP: sigh


Why isn't their an infinite like button???

I coldn't be a CCP employee, I'd live every day with dreams of carpet bombing fanfest.

When I look at CCP it reminds of being a parent. You give your kid something, they want something else, you give them something else and it's all "why can't I have the thing I used to have". Then they grow up and have to work for their own things, then have kids then wonder "why in hell can't this kid be happy with what I give him, doesn't he know I work for a living"..... It's a vicious circle over and over again until the Sun explodes...

At least as a parent you know the kid eventually grows up, where as with CCP their needy preteens...I mean customers...will always be the same.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2013-12-06 14:52:15 UTC
The origin of 18 months, just as a further FYI.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2013-12-06 15:20:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
We want CCP to continue with internet spaceship fixes in this internet spaceship game.


Yeah we do, this doesn't mean they can't take like 1% of their time and draw up some rooms we can walk around in.
Hell, if they offered I bet the community would design thousands of rooms for them for free.

Also a much wanted WiS addition that people want ... a window so you can see what's outside your station ... is very much a spaceship fix unless there's a good reason for us undocking blind.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#60 - 2013-12-06 15:23:58 UTC
Major Trant wrote:

To all those people talking about WiS that was almost complete and then arbitrarily thrown out to start again on a new engine. Rubbish! WiS failed, for whatever reason they couldn't get it working. They gave up on it.

For a given value of failure.

They failed to get it good enough to serve any more serious game play within the amount of time and resources they had available.

When they chose to remove a major amount of resources from WoD, there was no longer a valid case for pushing WiS.

Major Trant wrote:

What we got was a face saving exercise, which failed to do even that. CCP are never going to work on it again, but after so much time and effort wasted, they are too embarrassed to admit it.

What we got was an implementation of what they had and what they judged worth to implement.

One can also be a wee bit cynic and add that they got a serious amount crash dumps, bug reports and use cases that can be used for next iteration ;)

Major Trant wrote:

That is why no CCP employee has commented on this thread.

It's a young thread, and one that might bring up quite emotional reactions memories from CCP staff.

Remember that when we got parts of a future game removed or delayed, they had friends who lost their jobs.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.