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Two years later: Walking in Stations

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Author
Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#21 - 2013-12-06 10:32:17 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:

Yup but they did spend 4 years of development on it... so that was just a complete waste then?

Have you used CQ?


That CQ didn't take them 4 years. It probably didn't take them half of an expansion cycle.
Dextrome Thorphan
#22 - 2013-12-06 10:34:07 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:
WASPY69 wrote:
CCP clearly said in a recent statement that EVE is, in fact a game about internet spaceships, and so therein lies the primary development focus.
So don't wait up at night expecting WIS to arrive anytime soon. And on your latter question, not to promote another game, but i believe Star Citizen will have said walking in stations, or at least in your ship hangar.


Yup but they did spend 4 years of development on it... so that was just a complete waste then?

Have you used CQ?


Yes, I have. I was replying to the guy saying eve is about spaceships and the whole carbon character engine thing should keep being ignored forever, thus rendering the 4 years spent developping the character creator a complete waste of time. I wouldn't exactly call walking around in a static room with my character a feature worth 4 years of development. But hey, that's just me.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-12-06 10:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
One of the biggest issues was the speed of progress. Incarna took almost a year and was released with just one interior complete. It took them another expansion to get the other races done.

Then you must consider the fact that Incarna as it was delivered is unusable for its original design. Its simply too resource intensive for the majority of people to use if other people will be interacting on screen.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#24 - 2013-12-06 10:38:52 UTC
Hemi DarkStar wrote:
Highly unlikely they will make the same mistake twice. WiS needs a place in EVE, even if it's only a very small part of the game. Yes it's about spaceships, pew pew and all that BS, but for some it's also about the lore and immersion of EVE. And the worse thing is...CQ teases us constantly with "what could have been".

"Then just look at the hangar when you dock."

Not the same, never will be.

EVE radiates something other games fail to grasp. It's design and massive lore demand more then just spaceship fights. Hence the 2 other products of CCP. A WiS expansion that is properly implemented without damaging the economy or the precious internet spaceships would benefit the game allot, and finally attract new some new players to EVE.

Start small, ease into the process. Use lube, as some of the fanboys still are a bit butthurt from the last time. Lol



this is how i feel too, and i think many players, many potential customers feel this way too. I am not sure why CCP does not capitalize on this. Its one thing to make a huge mistake like incarna, some people at ccp just seem to knee jerk react to things "if it fails dont try it again" no ccp you put out a bad product with incarna that doesnt mean there isnt a huge market for doing it right!

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Dextrome Thorphan
#25 - 2013-12-06 10:39:23 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:

Yup but they did spend 4 years of development on it... so that was just a complete waste then?


Of course not, it was just part of their development for WoD, a game which has the potential to make CCP even more money that Dust!


Hah yeah... it's actually not unlikely that that's the actual truth behind the whole thing.
Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#26 - 2013-12-06 10:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Cindy Marco wrote:
One of the biggest issues was the speed of progress. Incarna took almost a year and was released with just one interior complete. It took them another expansion to get the other races done.

Then you must consider the fact that Incarna as it was delivered is unusable for its original design. Its simply too resource intensive for the majority of people to use if other people will be interacting on screen.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

yes of course keep expanding on an already great spaceship game but ccp seems to not realize they are going to lose customers if they do not tap into the avatar or walking in a station aspect of science fiction. especially if it allows for more game play such as trade shops and avatar interaction .

do we have a csm that cares about this kind of stuff?

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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#27 - 2013-12-06 10:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Baroness Vulna wrote:
*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

yes of course keep expanding on an already great spaceship game but ccp seems to not realize they are going to lose customers if they do not tap into the avatar or walking in a station aspect of science fiction. especially if it allows for more game play such as trade shops and avatar interaction .
Yes I sure can't wait to walk up and touch my spaceships. Nothing says immersion like hopelessly low res textures.

As for losing customers, how many years has it been since Incarna failed to materialise? Exactly when is this mass exodus going to begin?

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#28 - 2013-12-06 10:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Will just clarify some points:

We don't know who changed 2007's prototype for the development plan of which Incarna was the first stage.

We do know that at one point, everything "2007" was scrapped and CCP started working on a different engine and a different art style. That, of course, inducted a severe delay, on whcih CCP was neither releasing ships nor avatars.

As I said we don't know who derailed the original Ambulation and convinced the company to go after Incarna, but my personal guess is that the man's dev name started with a Z and ended with a u.

Concerning the current abandonment of WiS, that's a decission taken very high up, probably by Hilmar himself. CCP is not controlled by stakeholders, albeit they have a massive share (above 49% of total).

As for what did CCP wrong, they overstretched themselves, believed their own hype and allowed chance to guide them.

Now they are still going wrong and pretend that they didn't needed incarna and thus it's OK to dismiss avatars and devote their efforts to developing three other games and god knows what apps. And this way, they are being cheered by a small but noisy minority who is OK with spaceships and spreadsheets, which certainly eases their mind... but that minority is not paying the bills.

*Snip* Please refrain from discussing other (non-EvE/Dust/Valkyrie) games. ISD Ezwal.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#29 - 2013-12-06 10:50:10 UTC
Cindy Marco wrote:
One of the biggest issues was the speed of progress. Incarna took almost a year and was released with just one interior complete. It took them another expansion to get the other races done.

Then you must consider the fact that Incarna as it was delivered is unusable for its original design. Its simply too resource intensive for the majority of people to use if other people will be interacting on screen.

It was poorly conceived and executed. It would really be have to remade from scratch and I (along with many others) don't want to lose a another year to Barbie Dress-up in Space.


The speed of progress you are talking about had little to nothing to do with the CQs. CCP made their own games engine (CARBON) from scratch during that time. Now, what do you think took them more time? A games engine, or a room? That other expansion the three other racial captains quarters were released in was probably one of Eve most content rich expansions ever.

The whole thing was poorly done, and although the CARBON engine has been of massive benefit to Eve since then they would have been better not re-inventing the wheel. They already had the old WiS model mostly done using the Unreal engine that was popular at the time. Why they abandoned it, I will never know.

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#30 - 2013-12-06 10:50:45 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Now they are still going wrong and pretend that they didn't needed incarna and thus it's OK to dismiss avatars and devote their efforts to developing three other games and god knows what apps.
Those developers whose games actually exist are answerable to this thing called reality, in which EVE going pure-spaceships-development actually brought people back to the game.

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-12-06 10:52:27 UTC
Baroness Vulna wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



The players did , whith their massive revotls, riots and demands that CCP scrapped the focus on incarna in favor of SPACE. CCP lost a LOT of costumers and only started gettign them back after they complied.

THey leaarned a lesson. Do not expect anything incarna related soon.



Well CCP is going to lose alot more players if they just ignore avatars and walking in stations because there are a great many players (i know of) who want that to be part of the game they play.

With competition coming, many will just go to the other games if CCP cant deliver. My point is, if one company can do a decent job with avatars and walking in station in BETA, why cant CCP do something decent for its customers who want walking in stations with their awesome internet spaceships?



They lost almost 1/3 of their players. IT was nto a few..w as enough that CCP had to lay off a large ammount of their workforce. IT was a clear statemernt.. focus on incarna and loose the whole game within a year.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2013-12-06 11:00:28 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
OP doesn't ask "Why did WiS development stop?" as everyone posting in this thread seems to assume, he asks:

Baroness Vulna wrote:
So who made the big decision to scrap the good walking in stations for what we have now?


l2r


The answer is we the players did.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#33 - 2013-12-06 11:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Crumplecorn wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Now they are still going wrong and pretend that they didn't needed incarna and thus it's OK to dismiss avatars and devote their efforts to developing three other games and god knows what apps.
Those developers whose games actually exist are answerable to this thing called reality, in which EVE going pure-spaceships-development actually brought people back to the game.


Exactly, they brought people back. But they aren't drawing in new customers, and thus the PCU has been stagnating since Incarna, despite that CCP is spending more and more money in advertising.

And, do you guess what else is stagnating too? Interest in EVE.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Duran Veldspur
First Imperial Caldari Bank
#34 - 2013-12-06 11:26:39 UTC
EVE avatars look great i agree. I need a haircut tho. Any barbershops?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2013-12-06 11:32:58 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Exactly, they brought people back. But they aren't drawing in new customers, and thus the PCU has been stagnating since Incarna, despite that CCP is spending more and more money in advertising.
…if by “stagnating” you mean “recovering”.
And it's not really since Incarna but since Incursions.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#36 - 2013-12-06 11:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And, do you guess what else is stagnating too? Interest in EVE.
>Hype Machine 5000 has less interest than 'stagnated' Spreadsheets in Space
>Lines are trending to cross, but just then EVE line says '**** you' and goes back up to stay ahead of SC

top kek

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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#37 - 2013-12-06 11:40:52 UTC

CCP: Walk around in stations, pose, ERP, itll be fun and a nice test for WoD

Forums: Wah, complain, grissle, Saceship gaem, GrrCCP, ruiners, waste of time, Moar ships, less barbie, why you no listen CCP to customers

CCP: Ok


*Two Years Later *

CCP: Here, more ships, do more, modules, tactics, maybe even ares

Forums: OMG GrrCCP BLINK, ruiners, waste of time, where WiS??

CCP: sigh

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#38 - 2013-12-06 11:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
Kagura Nikon wrote:

They lost almost 1/3 of their players. IT was nto a few..w as enough that CCP had to lay off a large ammount of their workforce. IT was a clear statemernt.. focus on incarna and loose the whole game within a year.


"Focus on incarna" wasn't what caused the lay-offs. Poor management, unrealistic goals, making a games engine they didn't need (taking up content development time), releasing content that didn't work, terrible micro-transactions, removing current features that people liked and not delivering on what they said they were going to achieve is what caused lay offs. The dream of Walking in Stations had nothing to do with it.

When ever I see someone blame the WiS idea for CCP's problem, I see someone who is completely ignorant to what actually happened. Walking in stations, done well, would have been amazing. What CCP had planned to develope didn't lose them players. What they actually did, cost them players. That's a massive difference you are conveniently ignoring.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2013-12-06 12:03:38 UTC
I'll just post the 2008 unveiling, the environments presentation and game design presentation here as a reminder of what was lost (along with these very videos) in the transition from “WiS” to “Incarna”, and why the OP is asking his actual question…
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#40 - 2013-12-06 12:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Baroness Vulna wrote:



Well CCP is going to lose alot more players if they just ignore avatars and walking in stations because there are a great many players (i know of) who want that to be part of the game they play.


Good riddence then :P

WIS was a terrible idea that we all told CCP would be terrible when they announced it in the first place, turns out it was terrible, hate to say i told you so CCP, so the project was scrapped, they used that experience for other things like dust, if you have ever walked around in the pre-game lobby you will notice it feels pretty much identical to CQ but with generic clone troopers

I for one will not miss CQ if it were to be removed completely as the only time i see it is when i reinstall and have to disable CQ because its the default option, there were a couple of minor cool features CCP said they wanted with WIS but seeing as the base product failed we wont ever see those interesting features :P

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal